Posted on 08/07/2009 9:00:03 AM PDT by Teófilo
PING!
I intend no debate, just exposition. Others may and will debate. I can't stop that.
-Theo
I don’t have a deg in this fight, but I like the Eastern types simply because their outfits are so neat, with those funny black hat things that the priests wear.
Ignoring “Thou art Peter” etc. as though it were meaningless and died with Peter is typical protestant blather that does NOT withstand the test of logic.
Matthew 16 discusses building on the rock. Matthew 7 had already defined that rock. There’s self serving logic, truth, and God’s Truth.
Matthew 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.”
You wrote:
“I can’t stop that.”
Oh, come on now Theo! You posted it. I’m not trying to pick on you, but you can control what you post even if you can’t control what others post.
:)
Very well organized and written!
Another key difference among the priesthood is that Orthodox priests are allowed to marry and have families whereas Orthodox Monks are not. You may explain separately in a life contrasts section how this affects living among orthodox and roman catholic.
You may want to expound on differences of how divorce is treated.
You may also point out differences in how orthodox and roman catholics view and treat jewish history and people.
Your list does include human anthropology such as icons, chants/music, so I would think the items above would find relevance.
Although you wanted to limit your list to 12 items for the symbolism (which I think is a great idea), I would think to organize along philosophical differences, anthropological differences, and make lists according to these categories so that you are not ‘boxed’ in to 12 items.
Thank you for your expose’, it is very revealing.
Which is EXACTLY what I meant...I am debating no one in my post, just exposing to compare and contrast to the best of my ability 12 differences between the OCC and the RCC from an OCC perspective. But I am well aware that many will debate it and that the debate will progress through hitherto unknown - and unintended - channels. And I can't stop that, nor do I want to stop it.
And this is what makes this hobby "fun."
-Theo
Those garments and vestments originate from the traditions of the Levitical priests of the Old Testament. Hence, the Orthodoxy claim they are ‘closest’ to the birth of Christianity to the time of Jesus among the Jews. In other words, many of the Orthodox priests early on were Jewish and preserved Jewish traditions of dress and authority.
We must remember that Christianity came about from a schism among Jews. Christian orthodox are the first organized Christians and have not changed in nearly 2000 years. Many Episcopal are joining the Orthodox Church for that very reason, they want a faith is unchanging, as close to the original witness as possible.
The Orthodox Church is said to have been founded by the Apostle Paul, and also Apostle Peter before Peter went to Rome.
When I write my book, tentatively titled "Confessions of a Guilty Ortho-Catholic Bystander," I might include your concerns and perhaps follow that pattern. For I do have things to say on those issues too.
When, oh when would I be able to write my book! Lord?
-Theo
The Orthodox counter is that Peter was in the East before he was in Rome. That Peter’s church in Rome is an extension of his churches in the East. We remember they were united before and there was no hierarchy bestowing more authority to the Bishop of Rome, now known as the roman catholic pope.
To me it has always been sad that Rome has always demanded subservience from others on this point. Why do they not bend and ask for forgiveness of this pride? It is not that ther traditions are shunned or avoided, in fact they are admired, but they have created division of ‘them versus others’. To me they should bow down asking for forgiveness, pledging servitude. This act would exalt them and make them true leaders of Orthodox. By bending and surrendering they would be blessed with authority because they would regain trust.
Just my thoughts.
The first time I ever saw it was at my uncle's wedding: He had a friend who was/is an Orthodox priest, which was odd, seeing as how my uncle is an Episcopalian priest.
Now, with the passage of time, I acknowledge the Orthodox guy as being closer to true Christianity than my uncle.
Considering the fact that the Orthodox have been around longer than you, perhaps the Catholics have it wrong....you think????
I think Episcopalian traditions are wonderful and valuable. But there are more and more Episcopalians now attending the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox because of a schism in the Epioscopalian community, and an accurate sense that the Orthodox provide a sanctuary.
The value of Orthodoxy, and all Orthodox know this, is they never change. And it easier for them to adhere to this never changing nature because the Divine Liturgy seldom requires anyting more than love. Even obedience is secondary to love.
But the problems of the Orthodox are as the problems in other Christian sects, that of personal problems among priests and bishops, problems of budgets, of decisions of who is promoted etc.
So Orthodoxy is not and can never be Utopia. But its adherence to the Divine Liturgy is its center, as our thread author wrote so well. The Divine Liturgy focuses each of us before the Eternal, we stand before Eternity for a few hours and come away humbled.
Bingo! When RCCers are challenged on their own Romish claims, they respond with chauvinism, not humility.
MarkBsnr,
From a RC point of view, does this
comparison seem accurate to you?
best,
ampu
When Messiah returns, he will take His place as King of the Jews and reside in Jerusalem; and rule from his throne on Mount Zion, in the temple, in the holy of holies on the place of the name of YHWH Tsabaoth. Israel will finally recognize Messiah and will be exalted. And we Gentile Christians will have the glorious privelege of participating in that grand kingdom.
The RCC and Orthodox and any other largely predominately gentile Christian organizations need to get off their high horses and realize that they aren't central ... Israel is...at least according to the holy, inspired scriptures we all claim to revere.
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