Nora Lozano
Posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:11 PM PDT by NYer
EDE, Netherlands (ABP) -- A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus.
Nora Lozano
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Lozano, a participant in theological conversations between the Baptist World Alliance and the Vatican, made the remarks in a presentation to the BWA Commission on Doctrine and Interchurch Cooperation at a meeting of global Baptists in the Netherlands.
She noted the Mexican story of the Virgin of Guadalupe -- a purported apparition of Mary to an indigenous peasant in Mexico City in the 16th century -- and how closely it ties the identity of the nation's Catholicism with Mary, who serves as a sort of "demi-goddess."
There are analogous Virgin Mary cults of devotion in other Latin American countries.
Lozano said Mexican Baptists and other Protestants, meanwhile, actively ignore Mary, to the extent of giving the biblical character short shrift.
"It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary," Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.
And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, "Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary."
In those countries, Lozano noted, "This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists."
Because Mary is so perfect in popular Catholic theology in Latin America -- perpetually a virgin, although a mother; blameless, even sinless -- Lozano said she becomes an impossible standard of womanhood. Nonetheless, many men look for this standard in the mother of their children.
On the other hand, Lozano noted, Mary's opposite -- the wanton harlot -- is what many men tend to look for in sex partners. Being forced to choose between the two stereotypes can be deadly for women.
"When these [images of Mary and her opposite] are misused, they become oppressive and a source of suffering for women," she said. "Neither one of these models is a good one for women, because they do not present women as complete human beings."
Lozano said that embracing the "life-giving" aspects of Marian veneration can be both healthy for all women and a bridge between Latin American Protestants and Catholics, she contended.
Lozano pointed to two passages dealing with Mary in the Christmas story as recorded in Luke's Gospel: The angel's announcement to Mary that she would bear Christ (Luke 1:26-38), and Mary's song of praise to God, often called the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).
Mary is not a passive presence in those stories, Lozano pointed out, but an active and willing participant in God's work who was "well aware of social injustices," she said.
"She is subject with a strong will and a social consciousness," Lozano noted.
Lozano delivered her remarks on the second day of the BWA's Annual Gathering in Ede, Netherlands. Hundreds of Baptists from around the world came to conduct BWA General Council business as well as observe the 400th anniversary of the Baptist movement, which began in the summer of 1609 in nearby Amsterdam.
Ok, but as I understand it, it’s all Catholic theology, not Protestant ... the history of Catholic theology is quite interesting plus its origins of how the church came about.
How do you know she didn't remain a virgin? Were you there?
Calvin, Luther and Zwingli all believed in Mary's perpetual virginity and her Immaculate Conception. So did many of the early Anglicans.
The "here are my mother and brothers" is a figure of speech, and is no more to be taken literally than, as C.S. Lewis said, when St. Paul said we were to be as doves he wanted us to lay eggs.
“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Ah, but what if Jesus was saying that a better understanding of Mary’s blessedness is that she had learned the word of God and when He asked something of her, she obeyed willingly? To love God’s word and obey it is blessedness— and Mary did that beautifully.
Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the Jesus, one may argue that an exception for Mary can also be made.
And 'until' in the KJV does not necessarily imply that the negative eventually happened. When it says that "Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death," it means that he never saw him again, not that he showed up the day he died.
References please.
Neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."
The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of "brothers" to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.) In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English "brother" has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.
“Its tense suggests a permanent state of being “highly favored,”
Your Greek is in error. What the tense suggests is that the act finished in the past.
“Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God’s grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve.”
Actually, she is being called “most blessed’. Not most perfect or faultless, or most anything else, but most blessed [divinely or supremely favored; or favored of God]. Add in the angel’s greeting (”Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”), and you get that she has received the greatest favor [”something done or granted out of goodwill, rather than from justice or for remuneration; a kind act”] any woman ever received from God. And since she is about to give birth to God in the flesh, I heartily agree.
However, it does not suggest she was born sinless or lived sinless. The focus is on what God is doing for her - HIS favor - not her supposed perfection. The same word is used in Mark 8 “They also had a few small fish; and after He had blessed them, He ordered these to be served as well.” God (Jesus) blessed the fish. He did not proclaim them sinless fish, or the most holy of fish ever. God used the fish for His purpose, just as He did Mary.
And at the hour of my death, I expect to rejoice, knowing
“”All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6
New Testament:
Cousin
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:58 And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.
Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);
Kin
Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among [their] kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor [thy] rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Jhn 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being [his] kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
Rom 16:21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.
For the Aramaic, find an online Aramaic lexicon and search for cousin. I found one a while back, but don’t feel like researching it again.
As you can see, the NT writers did know how to refer to someone as cousin or kin, instead of brother.
Ping to my answer in post 50.
You are quoting an English translation! Look at the original Aramaic form.
You are partially correct. Until does not REQUIRE a change, although it strongly suggests it. Firstborn almost always applies to the first born of several. The only exception I know of is when addressing large groups of people (Exodus), in which case firstborn can mean the first and only child in some families.
If you know of others examples, please share so I can learn.
The plain meaning of those passages is that Mary had other children. If all those passages together mean otherwise, then the Holy Spirit was rather imprecise in His writing...
I am quoting english translations of Greek. Greek DID have a word for kin (syggenes) or cousin (anepsios), and it WAS used regularly by NT writers, including Luke.
As for Aramaic - look it up in a lexicon. But don’t forget - the Holy Spirit used Greek in breathing the NT scripture.
When Jesus was found in the Temple at age twelve, the context suggests that he was the only son of Mary and Joseph. There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51). Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and the people of Nazareth referred to him as "the son of Mary" (Mark 6:3), not as "a son of Mary." In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ "brethren." If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.
Also, the attitude taken by the "brethren of the Lord" implies they are his elders. In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies (remember, Palestine is in Asia), older sons gave advice to younger, but younger seldom gave advice to older—it was considered disrespectful to do so. But we find Jesus’ "brethren" saying to him that Galilee was no place for him and that he should go to Judea so he could make a name for himself (John 7:3–4).
Consider what happened at the foot of the cross. When he was dying, Jesus entrusted his mother to the apostle John (John 19:26–27). The Gospels mention four of his "brethren": James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is hard to imagine why Jesus would have disregarded family ties and made this provision for his mother if these four were also her sons.
Oh my gosh. That's terrible. :-)
As for the adelfoi / suggeneis controversy, the problem is that while the latter is a word for 'relatives' - literally meaning one of the same gens or race - adelfoi may also have a much broader meaning than 'brother'. Lot was Abraham's nephew, not his brother. And the 120 'brothers' in Acts 1 are unlikely to all be born of the same mother.
The real problem, however, is that with my Liddell & Scott and 3 years of Classical Greek I can sit here splitting reasons with you forever, but without the Teaching Office of the Church it's not persuasive. I can marshal arguments for my side and you can marshal arguments for your side, but the Truth does not depend on who is the more persuasive advocate or who has a better knowledge of Greek (admittedly I am more at home in Classical than koine). It's like two lawyers arguing -- there has to be a judge. And the traditions and teaching of the Church, for me, are the arbiter that fetches the most ingenious argument from Scripture up short like a canny old Superior Court judge, "Yes, that's all well and good, but THIS is what the law says."
Or, as an old Scots Session judge said to a plausible criminal, "Ay, that's all verra weel -- but ye'd be none the waur of a hangin'!"
Nora Lozano.
“Whether you believe it or not, you have deified her.”
Man, Catholics can’t even get that right, eh? At least the pagans admit to their goddess worship, I bet it is even required!! But Catholics are such bad goddess worshippers they kick anyone out of the Church who proclaims they worship Mary, which would seem to be counter productive to the fostering of goddess worship.
If Catholics did deify Mary (we don’t)we would tell you about it. Why the heck wouldn’t we? It’s not like Catholics are famous for agonizing about what other types of Christians think about the Catholic Church. “Oh no, the other sorts of Christians will think even worse of us if we admit to our hidden Mary worship!!” isn’t something I could see the Pope saying, for instance.
Freegards
Jeremiah 7:18 uses the term “queen of heaven” but it sure wasn’t about Mary!
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