Posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:11 PM PDT by NYer
Angry?
It is called faith and understanding. If you do not possess it from within, then you will not have the gift of understanding the meaning. I pray for you, because you lack the gift of God.
FReep regards
“There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51).”
This episode would probably be written the same regardless of any other children. They were traveling in a group with relatives, so they could easily have returned for Jesus while the others went on with relations.
“In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren.” If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.”
When my Mom used to visit me with my sister, someone would refer to ‘his mother and sister are here’ - not, ‘his mother and her daughter is here. Nothing strange about it.
“the people of Nazareth referred to him as “the son of Mary””
I have 2 daughters. Someone referring to Samantha would refer to her as the daughter of Bob and Marlene, unless they needed to discuss the younger sister at the same time. So ‘Jesus the son of Mary’ doesn’t imply no other sons.
At the foot of the cross, it would be strange to commend his mother to the care of ANYONE not related, if there were any relatives at all. I think the best answer is that Jesus loved his mother, and commended her to the care of someone he trusted completely - John.
Brother, in Greek as in English, can refer to a fellow believer or very distant relation. Context determines. So if I say, “My brothers were attending a bible study”, I could be talking about brothers, or fellow believers. If I’m filling out security paperwork, then I only list blood brothers.
So when someone says ‘his mother and brothers are here’, it strongly suggests brothers by family ties, since Mary is linked to them. Likewise, James, brother of Jesus - when mentioned in Galatians 2 - obviously means something more that ‘fellow believer’.
The real problem, as you suggest, is you need to follow your church’s teaching. If scripture plainly suggests otherwise, you still need to follow your church.
On a matter like Mary’s perpetual virginity, I don’t care all that much. You obviously can be a devout believer and also believe in her perpetual virginity, or not.
On other matters - Purgatory and Indulgences - it is a bit more of a challenge, but that is a subject for a different thread.
There is much in Scripture that is unclear - and many, who as St. Peter said, "wrest it unto their own destruction". That's why St. Peter made that caution, and why St. Paul referred to his teachings 'by word of mouth' as well as 'by letter'. And the teaching office the saints and the early Church Fathers exercised is still necessary. Most scriptural misinterpretation is harmless, but some of it can get very strange and pernicious, usually in small sects following a very magnetic and dominant preaching personality.
“Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).”
A child “below the age of reason” is not the same as Paul writing about Jacob and Esau as “unborn babies” who had “done nothing either good or bad”.
What is your scriptural reference for saying that “sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin”?
“So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the Jesus, one may argue that an exception for Mary can also be made.”
If you want to argue this point, you’re arguing with God and His holy word that clearly states all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Psalms 51
4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
“David elsewhere speaks of the admirable structure of his body (Ps. cxxxix. 14, 15); it was curiously wrought; and yet here he says it was shapen in iniquity, sin was twisted in with it; not as it came out of God’s hands, but as it comes through our parents’ loins. He elsewhere speaks of the piety of his mother, that she was God’s handmaid, and he pleads his relation to her (Ps. cxvi. 16, lxxxvi. 16), and yet here he says she conceived him in sin; for though she was, by grace, a child of God, she was, by nature, a daughter of Eve, and not excepted from the common character. Note, It is to be sadly lamented by every one of us that we brought into the world with us a corrupt nature, wretchedly degenerated from its primitive purity and rectitude; we have from our birth the snares of sin in our bodies, the seeds of sin in our souls, and a stain of sin upon both. This is what we call original sin, because it is as ancient as our original, and because it is the original of all our actual transgressions. This is that foolishness which is bound in the heart of a child, that proneness of evil and backwardness to good which is the burden of the regenerate and the ruin of the unregenerate; it is a bent to backslide from God.”
Both Luther and Calvin were firm defenders of the perpetual virginity of the Virgin. It was only later that Protestants began to find this traditional belief offensive. Until then, everyone agreed that Jesus’ “brothers” were either step-brothers or cousins.
It is fine for you to believe this. But it is a teaching not found in the scriptures. It was invented by the Roman Catholic Church so as to assimilate Semiramis-worshippers.
“Ann, the mother of Mary conceived immaculately. This is is common knowledge and is taught by Anglican, ORthodox, Catholic and more traditions.”
I was raised Episcopalian (Anglican) in a Low Church Evangelical tradition. We were taught no such thing.
Jeremiah does indeed mention the Queen of Heaven... and castigates those who baked cakes for her... as well as those who weeped for her son/husband, Tammuz.
"Everyone" ...except for the gospel writers.
- from what I read in the Bible that nobody was born without sin but Jesus .... the Catholic church proclaimed the Immaculate Conception early on ... I've never read anything in the Bible that said she was born without sin ...
Sound familiar?
Very
The Anglican Church was a political solution to keep the almost-Catholic and the almost-Puritan from burning each other depending on which party was in power.
It worked so long as all Anglicans agreed on essentials and the high parish didn't know (or pretended not to know) what the low parish was doing, and vice versa. The monkeyshines of the American Episcopal church put an end to that.
I am much more fluent in German than I am in Greek (I studied German for 10 years and Greek for only 3). If I learned one thing during that time, it's that an absolutely accurate translation from one language to another is virtually impossible. If that is true from one modern language to another, how much more difficult from the Greek of almost 2,000 years ago (NT) or even more (LXX) filtered through early 17th century English which is deceptively similar to modern but can trip you up . . . .
I would not trust to my own understanding even of the original Greek for my salvation. And those who do not read Greek are relying on various translators, commentators, and compilers of concordances.
That's why the Teaching Office is absolutely necessary. Otherwise you are putting your trust in anonymous committees of translators. Better the Early Church Fathers and their direct inheritors, who do not interpret everything anew but build on the foundation they were given.
Thanks for posting that. Co-redemtrix is denied here fervently but we read things like this all the time.
Jesus is the only sinless one.
Thank you. That’s excellent and I agree (for what it’s worth, LOL).
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