Mary: Holy Mother

Catholic Pages ^ | 6/18/09 | Scott Hahn

[bdeaner]

No, I believe in the Trinity. Matthew 1:18; 3:11; 12:31-32; 28:29, & Mark 12:36 leave no doubt in my mind that a Person denominated “the Holy Ghost”, or “the Holy Spirit” exists. We already have the Father and the Son. So that makes three. Hence the term, “the Trinity”.

That simple, huh? Then you should have no problem answering this basic questions by showing me explicitly in the Bible where it states the answer to the questions.

Is God a single person who, through Biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes? Yes or no?

Did the Father and Son exist together eternally? Or was the Son created by the Father?

Since Jesus is the Son of God, was He fully human, fully divine, or a combination of both?

Was Jesus really Divine, yet only appeared to have a body? Or was he really embodied?

Was Jesus adopted by God the Father, and then endowed with powers after His baptism?

Is God one person?

Since the Bible is so crystal clear on the Trinity, as you say, I'm sure you will have no problem pointing to the verses that clarify these matters that are foundational to the Christian faith.

[chesley]

OK. But no more worthy of veneration, or adoration, or whatever you call it than any other human being. Mary depends for her salvation on Jesus Christ, same as the rest of us.

[bdeaner]

OK. But no more worthy of veneration, or adoration, or whatever you call it than any other human being.

Mary is not divine and should not be worshipped. But she is worthy of special honor. Scripture seems to be pretty clear on this point:

In the first book of the Old Testament we read the following: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3, 15). This verse, called the "protoevangelion," is the first promise of the redeeming Messiah. The woman in this verse is the Virgin Mary, Her offspring is, of course, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Despite the fact that there is distinct controversy among Biblical scholars as to whether the text should read "she", "he" or "it shall bruise"(or crush), the meaning is the same, as it is through Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that the Virgin Mary crushes Satan.

Genesis 3, 15, together with the following passages, form the basis for venerating the Virgin Mary as Mother of God:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, His name shall be called Emmanuel (i.e., God with us)" (Is. 7, 14 [Douai]);

"For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Is. 9, 6);

"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (St. Luke 1, 28 [Douai]); BR> "(St. Elizabeth to Our Lady) And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?" (St. Luke 1, 43);

"...for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed" (St. Luke 1, 48);

"...Woman, behold your son...(Son) behold your mother" (St. John 19, 26-27);

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail" (Rev. 11, 19). The Ark of the Covenant was a symbolic type of the Virgin Mary. The original Ark was overladen with gold and contained within itself a pot of manna, Aaron's priestly rod, and the two tables of the Ten Commandments (Heb. 9, 4). It was overshadowed by a propitiatory, or mercy seat, upon which God Himself dwelt (the Shekinah) between two statues of Cherubim (Exod. 25). It was forbidden for anyone to touch the Ark on pain of death. The Virgin Mary, in comparison, was a greater Ark, being a human creature immaculately conceived who carried within Her womb not simply the symbols of Christ, but Christ Himself. God, likewise, overshadowed Her, when the Holy Spirit conceived Christ within Her. Being a perpetual virgin, no one could, or did, "touch" Her. Joshua prostrated himself and venerated the Ark for hours (Josh. 7, 6). As "Joshua" means "Jesus" we have a type of Jesus venerating a type of Mary. Applying this to the New Testament figures themselves, it symbolically represents Jesus Christ paying veneration to His Mother.2

"A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Rev. 12, 1);

"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne" (Rev. 12, 5);

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12, 17).

The Church distinguishes clearly between dulia, or "the homage of veneration," and latria, which signifies "the worship of adoration." Veneration is paid to the Saints; a higher form of it, called hyperdulia, is given to the Virgin Mary; but adoration is given only to God. Any attempt to give adoration to a creature would certainly be idolatrous - but the Catholic Church has never given it. She adores God and God alone.

[humblegunner]

Mary is not Deity. I did not sin against her, but against God.

Madre de Dios! We agree on something!

[bdeaner]

Mary is not Deity. I did not sin against her, but against God.

Madre de Dios! We agree on something!

And, since you posted this presumably as a criticism of Scott Hahn's analysis and the Catholic view on Mary: You might be suprised that the Church also agrees with both of you on this point.

You are commanded to honor (venerate) your mother and father. That doesn't mean you elevate your mother and father to a deity. Nor does veneration or honoring of Mary elevate her to a deity. The Church honors, but does not adore, Mary for her special role in salvation history.

Criticism of the Catholic Church for "worshipping" Mary is a straw man argument.

[bdeaner]

Mary depends for her salvation on Jesus Christ, same as the rest of us.

I should mention that,on this point, we agree. My issue is with your first statement, which I have responded to with Scripture.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“...to see where in scripture do we see, not necessarily logical demonstrations that are brought forth from proof texts...”

OK THEN!

[bdeaner]

“...to see where in scripture do we see, not necessarily logical demonstrations that are brought forth from proof texts...”

His point is that he is not there to make the argument about Mary's role in salvation history, because he is talking to a Catholic audience. It would be preaching to the choir. So, rather than apologetics aimed at a disbelieving audience, which he is fully capable of doing, he is instead looking to "find in scripture the reflections and the illustrations and the assumptions and the conclusions that the Catholic Church affirms with regard to the Blessed Virgin Mary." He's being clear about his purpose here.

The tag on this article says "catholic." The lecture is developed rhetorically for Catholics and was delivered at a Catholic Church. The Protestants come of their own free will to this thread, apparently with an irresistable urge to bash the Lord's mother. I guess they have nothing better to do. No one is forcing anyone to read the article if they don't want to read it.

God bless.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Deaner,
I ain’t bashin’ anyone, including the Mother of my Savior.
Nor am I protestant.

Two bad assumptions.

best,
ampu

[bdeaner]

I wasn't talking about you necessarily, but other posters who have stated they are Protestant and seem to like to bash Mary.

What was the point of your statement, in any case?

[chesley]

Well, we'll have to disagree about that. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe not. I'm not convinced. Eternity will tell.

However, going extra-scriptural, I don't think a lot of Catholics understand your distinction between worship and honor, at least in Mary's case. I've lived in a Catholic Third World country, and I guarantee you that some of the Catholics there thought far more highly of Mary that of Jesus. I do understand that is not the official position of the Church.

Anyway, go with Christ. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other.

[Petronski]

...arguing with a brain washed Catholic...

I'm brainwashed because I don't agree with you?

LOL

That attitude is so healthy...

[WKB]

We are both winners then.
You’re laughing and I’m healthy.

[Petronski]

I’m healthy.

Yes, very health.

[backing away slowly]

[huldah1776]

Revelation is awesome, and not even touched upon above. Read the whole book a couple of times and be sure to pray before you read. Just ask for the truth, nothing but the truth. Be sure to read the book like it’s your first time, without what you have been taught by others. Then do a study. Chapter by chapter, verse by verse, taking into consideration what you have been taught and what you remember from other parts of the Bible. It’s really rather fun and very enlightening, and possibly, frightening.

[WKB]

Thanks but I have already read and taught
the Book of the Revelation 3 times and
have yet to see ANY Catholic teachings
other than The Catholic Church may be the
whore of Babylon.

[huldah1776]

Good grief. What did you teach about Revelation 12?

[Iscool]

Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. We worship the Lord, and we venerate or honor His Mother, because, in imitation of Chirst, we obey the 4th commandment.

Problem is; what you say you do and what you do are two different things...

When you ask someone to perform miracles for you; to provide you with grace, it is worship...And that's what we see and hear from you guys...

It's not a case of misunderstanding your religion...We see what you do and we know what worship is...

[Iscool]

Mary does show up in the New Testament after Romans 16:6. See Revelations 12:1-5, 17.

That has never been, is not, and never will be Mary...

The apostle Paul never once speaks of Mary, the Mother of Jesus...

Mary, the wonderful person that she probably was has been out of the picture for eons...

Why this fascination with the 'queen of heaven'??? God WARNS us about the queen of heaven...And yet, your religion insists there be a queen of heaven sitting on a throne next to Jesus...