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Mary: Holy Mother
Catholic Pages ^ | 6/18/09 | Scott Hahn

Posted on 06/18/2009 4:26:48 PM PDT by bdeaner

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To: Petronski
Wow, all those year of study and people come up with this kind of understanding. It actually funny if you read it, you would have to have theological degree to come up with that kind of stuff.

I think Hebrew's has a whole chapter that shows how the Ark of the Covenant represented Mary. Don't get me wrong, I like Mary because God choose her, but to go to that extent is reaching.

Funny how he says 3 Magi then get on to people who say they are wise men not mention in Bible, I don't think the Bile states 3 Magi, people just assume because of the 3 gifts.

41 posted on 06/19/2009 9:03:32 AM PDT by NoDRodee (U>S>M>C)
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To: WKB
Where is it that He does refer to her as Mother?

Very little of what Christ did in day to day life is recorded in Scripture. By your logic, He thus never did them.

Sola Scriptura is a false tradition of men.

42 posted on 06/19/2009 9:07:46 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

Well what IS written down about Jesus IN THE BIBLE is enough for me.
Enough to know He died for my sins and was resurrected
for my eternal Salvation. What Mary did or did not do
has no effect on that.
Paul said this is the most important thing.

First Cor 15
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Have A Blessed Day


43 posted on 06/19/2009 9:16:35 AM PDT by WKB (From "Handout" to "Bailout")
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To: WKB
What Mary did or did not do has no effect on that.

To say He never referred to her as mother is a ridiculous claim. What out to be claimed is that Scripture doesn't record it.

Of course, what Scripture records is not the end all and be all. Sola Scriptura is itself not Scriptural, so those who want to confine themselves to Scripture are in a bit of a pickle.

44 posted on 06/19/2009 9:19:12 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

Those who want to add to Scripture are in a worse pickle.


45 posted on 06/19/2009 9:23:06 AM PDT by WKB (From "Handout" to "Bailout")
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To: WKB
Those who want to add to Scripture are in a worse pickle.

Martin Luther did that, ironically trying to add the word "alone" to Romans 3:28.

Other than that, I don't know of anyone adding to Scripture.

46 posted on 06/19/2009 9:33:43 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

“so those who want to confine themselves to Scripture are in a bit of a pickle. “

“Martin Luther did that, ironically trying to add the word “alone” to Romans 3:28.”

Explain to me how you can confine yourself to Scripture
and be in a pickle and add to Scripture at the same
time and still be in a pickle.


47 posted on 06/19/2009 9:38:08 AM PDT by WKB (From "Handout" to "Bailout")
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To: bdeaner
No offense, but I stopped reading after these paragraphs: (By permission of the author)
“Total misreading, I believe. This is my own hypothesis. This is my own interpretation. You don't have to abide by it, but my view is that the nahash, the serpent is deliberately depicted as a kind of, I'd say mythical figure but I don't want to deny the historicity of this text. It's just that Hebrew historical narrative can often use mythical imagery to communicate historical truth. In Daniel 7, I mentioned four gentile kingdoms are described as being “four beasts.” So, I believe, here we have the serpent as a kind of dragon. The word is used and used and used in Hebrew to connote or denotes a dragon figure like Leviathan or Banmuth or Rehab, the monster later than Isaiah and elsewhere in the Old Testament. In Revelation 12:9 in the New Testament confirms this translation of nahash, not as serpent/snake, but as serpent/dragon, because there Satan is described as the “ancient serpent” and then it goes on to describe a seven-headed dragon.

So she is being confronted and brutally intimidated by a dragon who is intent upon producing disobedience, come hell or high water. So in the cross-examination, in the interrogation that goes back and forth, Satan uses the truth in a clever, deceptive, but intimidating way to kind of force this woman to see, in effect, that if she doesn't eat that fruit, she will die, at least in the biological, physical sense because Satan will see to it.

The question, then, as you read through this narrative is not based upon anything that is explicitly stated, but rather that which is so conspicuously unstated, and that is, where the heck is Adam in all this? By the end of the narrative you discover that he's right by the woman because she just turns and gives him the fruit to eat; but the question is, where was he all along? This loving covenant head, this loving covenant partner who is to show the great love that he's willing to lay down his life for his beloved? Well, he was probably rationalizing his silence by saying, “Well, if I oppose such a serpentile monster as this, I stand no chance.” “

The author uses an example of a prophet's envisioned allegory, to show how one could change the meaning of what a direct relation of Eve's action. This point can be allowed because one hopes it matters that one accept his alteration. In fact the only thing alteration allows is for further alteration of additional verses.

As for brutal intimidation, nothing is implied. Unless one read, "You will not surely die," as to mean, "If you eat it, I won't kill you."

But, the fact is, until sin affected the bodies of Adam and Eve, they did not know corruption, nor did they know death. They were in effect, immortal and would not die, nor suffer injury. These only entered after sin and the cursing of creation for that sin. A threat of death would mean nothing, and besides, Adam had dominion over all the animals.

Further, it is not apparent that Adam was immediately beside Eve when she was decieved.By the immediacy of the wording, it appears to be implied. However, reading that into the story is similar to people reading the narrative of the Book of Acts and believing it happened in a matter of weeks rather than years.

Adam's choice was not because he feared the serpent, but because he saw a seperation between God and Eve. He chose fellowship of Eve over God. This is a common decision, wrongly made by nearly the entire human population since that moment.

Because of the extent of misapplication, anything said either pro or against my current understanding, I deemed not worth my pursuit. If it agreed with my understanding, it is still a weak argument given the weak initial basis. If it disagreed with my theology, it still does not matter due to the same weak ness.

48 posted on 06/19/2009 9:38:38 AM PDT by Sensei Ern (http://www.myspace.com/reconcomedy)
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To: WKB
If you believe sola Scriptura you are faced with the obvious paradox that sola Scriptura is not Scriptural. That's the problem (pickle).

Luther's problem is that he actually added to Scripture...something expressly condemned by Scripture.

49 posted on 06/19/2009 9:41:49 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

So if you write down something that is not in accordance
with what God says you are OK as long as you
write it outside the Bible.
I understand now.

I am tired of rearranging the chairs on the titanic.
Have a Blessed day.


50 posted on 06/19/2009 9:47:01 AM PDT by WKB (From "Handout" to "Bailout")
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To: Petronski

Oh I would — I guess the question in my mind is — can Mary hear me? Is she capable of hearing prayers of all of us down here? If she can, can I pray to others who are in Heaven (let’s say I had a grand-father who had died)?

I’m not clear they can. But I know that the Father and Son can. And I know that those who are alive around me can pray for me as well. That’s all :)


51 posted on 06/19/2009 9:55:34 AM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: WKB
So if you write down something that is not in accordance with what God says...

Good thing the Catholic Church doesn't do that.

I am tired of rearranging the chairs on the titanic.

Is that what you call logic?

52 posted on 06/19/2009 10:04:00 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: rom
I’m not clear they can. But I know that the Father and Son can.

Fair enough.

As a Catholic, I believe they can and do hear us.

Be well.

53 posted on 06/19/2009 10:05:07 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

What a wonderful way to end a religious discussion :)

May you have a blessed day Brother!


54 posted on 06/19/2009 10:15:11 AM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: rom

And you too!


55 posted on 06/19/2009 10:19:34 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: bdeaner
No, I believe in the Trinity. Matthew 1:18; 3:11; 12:31-32; 28:29, & Mark 12:36 leave no doubt in my mind that a Person denominated “the Holy Ghost”, or “the Holy Spirit” exists. We already have the Father and the Son. So that makes three. Hence the term, “the Trinity”.

It's just a name, like Mary is just a woman. A virtuous woman who followed God righteously, but just a woman in the end. Not divine.

56 posted on 06/19/2009 10:24:11 AM PDT by chesley ("Hate" -- You wouldn't understand; it's a leftist thing)
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To: WKB
Those who want to add to Scripture are in a worse pickle.

Those who take away from Scripture are in the same pickle, and I recall a certain man named Luther who took seven books out of the Scripture. I'm guessing your Bible is missing those same books.

See:
Hebrew Scriptures and the Deuterocanonicals
57 posted on 06/19/2009 10:28:12 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Religion Moderator

thank you


58 posted on 06/19/2009 10:28:53 AM PDT by Laur
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To: Sensei Ern

Hahn is very clear that his interpretation of the serpent in Genesis is idiosyncratic, and states very clearly that it is not necessary to agree with this interpretation in order to consent to the rest of his exegesis of the Scriptures on Mary.


59 posted on 06/19/2009 10:33:30 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: chesley
Not divine.

Who said Mary is divine? Not the Catholic Church. Not Scott Hahn. That would definitely be a straw man argument. Full of grace, yes. Called Blessed throughout all the ages, yes. Honored, as Christ's Mother should be, in accordance with the Fourth Commandment, certainly. Divine, no.
60 posted on 06/19/2009 10:36:28 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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