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Homosexuality : Defiance of God and the Truth
Post Scripts ^ | 5/17/09 | OneVike

Posted on 05/17/2009 11:37:13 AM PDT by OneVike

Americans across the country opposed to giving marital status to homosexual couples, one would think that the same sex-marriage debate would have faded away. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. Every week we hear of another state either passing laws that allow gay marriages, or judges of those states ruling by fiat to force it upon society. As a logical Christian, I look at the many prophecies God has given us throughout the Scriptures, and I can see the writing on the wall. In the near future we will be living in a society that not only allows same-sex marriage but also accepts it as a normal way of life. It really should not surprise anyone, especially when you consider our society has allowed its high court to banish God from the class room and rule a woman has a right to abort her children. While I admit this is a battle we will inevitably lose, it is still one we must fight in the hearts and minds of every man and woman in America and abroad.

(Excerpt) Read more at norcalblogs.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: fdrq; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; morality; samesexmarriage; sin
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To: fr_freak; Chris DeWeese
fr_freak
Thank you for the answer to Chris on his comment in #11. I would say I agree with you. I would have answered him personally but I was out doing what I usually do on this the Lords day.

Chris DeWeese
The only thing left out by freak that I need to address is your assertion that Christians have abandoned the Sabbath. Well in your opinion we may have, but the Sabbath is not something a Christian is called to honor. One of the many reasons we celebrate the day our Lord was resurrected is because that is the day He proved that he defeated death. His resurrection shows us that we too shall one day be resurrected to eternal salvation.

As I said that was one reason, what follows will be a good explanation that will help you understand even better the reason we celebrate the Lords day of Sunday instead of the Jewish Sabbath of Saturday. Now I am not a follower of John Calvin, but there are a lot of good theological minds that have good information on various subjects, and the subject of the sabbath is one of them that Matt Slick has done a good job in explaining. So I figured why re-invent the wheel when he has already done the legwork. So take a look at what he has on the Sabbath.

This is from his site at carm.org. I will save my reasons for disagreeing with Calvinists on another thread and for another day, let's just say that in this case we see 100% eye to eye.

Evidence of the Change of Days can be Seen in the NT

Within the New Testament is ample evidence that the seventh day Sabbath is no longer a requirement.

The entire section of Rom. 14:1-12 is worth careful study. Nevertheless, the instructions here are that individuals must be convinced in their own minds about which day they observe for the Lord. If the seventh day Sabbath were a requirement, then the choice would not be mans’, but God’s.

Notice here that time sequence mentioned. A festival is yearly. A new moon is monthly. A Sabbath is weekly. No one is to judge in regard to this. The Sabbath is defined as a shadow, the reality is Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath.

The first day of the week is Sunday and this is the day the people gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching). Additionally, Luke did not use the Jewish system of counting days: sundown to sundown. He used the Roman system: midnight to midnight. This is a subtle point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not the one utilized by Luke.

Notice here that Paul is directing the churches to meet on the first day of each week and put money aside. It would seem that this is tithing. So, the instructed time for the church to meet is Sunday. Is this an official worship day set up by the church? You decide.

The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of heµ kyriakeµ heµmera. The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67).

In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.

I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, we no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ, not under law (Rom. 6:14).

21 posted on 05/17/2009 5:56:26 PM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Chris DeWeese; OneVike; fr_freak
James, the brother of Yah'shua ruled at the Council of Jerusalem I
that the gentiles should learn their values from YHvH's Torah read each Shabbat:

19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.

20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
Stern, D. H. (1989). Jewish New Testament :
(1st ed.) (Ac 15:19-21). Jerusalem, Israel; Clarksville, Md., USA:
Jewish New Testament Publications.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

23 posted on 05/17/2009 7:58:59 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Chris DeWeese; fr_freak
So, let me get this straight. Based on your sermon, homosexuality is not expressly forbidden in Genesis, but two cities are destroyed because of that sin (among others).

How on God's green earth did you get that from my article? Because that is not what I said.

There is no reason to go any further with our debate about the Sabbath, or any other subject you have a problem with, until you explain your inability to properly read what I wrote.

Please explain!
24 posted on 05/17/2009 8:22:45 PM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

Thanks for the ping!


25 posted on 05/17/2009 8:33:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: XeniaSt
Paul told the Colossians in Colossians 2:16-17
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Christ is our Sabbath rest, we do not need to fulfill any ceremonial laws. They have all been abolished in Christ, who is the fulfillment of all.
26 posted on 05/17/2009 8:33:52 PM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: SecAmndmt

ping for later


27 posted on 05/17/2009 10:10:20 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: OneVike
Paul told the Colossians in Colossians 2:16-17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Christ is our Sabbath rest, we do not need to fulfill any ceremonial laws. They have all been abolished in Christ, who is the fulfillment of all.

If Jesus is YHvH,
the Elohim who created Shabbat
and he celebrated Shabbat
and taught the correct way to keep Shabbat,
then why is Shabbat rejected ?

Why did Paul keep Shabbat ? To worship YHvH!

If you reject Shabbat then you reject Jesus as YHvH !

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
29 posted on 05/18/2009 6:30:30 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Chris DeWeese; fr_freak
How can you get any more exact on describing sin then to say ANYTHING that falls short of perfection is sin? We cannot be perfect, the only perfect man was Christ who was God. Everyone else falls drastically short, thus we sin. You my FRiend seem desirous of picking a fight where their is none to be found.

Your argument to me is actually insulting in that you come off as if I said everyone can perfect with out Christ, but I didn't. The thing you seem to miss is I agree that even after one accepts the Lord they are still very imperfect, fact is they will come to realize how imperfect they are, because they will see that they fall drastically short of a perfect God's desire for the kind of life they should live. Partly because of our selfish desires to be the the ruler of our own lives, and partly because, well quite frankly we are all born in sin. Even the best of our good works are no better than cow dung.

I do not disagree with the Bible's explanation that lawlessness is sin and we all practice lawlessness, but how does that make my statement wrong? My definition says the same thing but in the way I decided to explain it.

Another thing, you never answer the arguments about your flawed thinking, you just find reasons to pick about things that you desire to argue. Under your definition of Christianity, you must be the only one who is right and going to heaven because as far as you are concerned everyone else is wrong. Do your self a favor answer the points brought up about your obviously flawed reasoning on the statements you made, and back them up with facts.

So I now come full circle and ask you why is it you have a problem with my taking a position that many false teachers are leading those caught up in the gay lifestyle into the false assumption that the Bible condones their behavior? I know that fr_freak pointed out that it is the Homosexual community that is trying to legalize immoral behavior by equating it to heterosexuality that God condones. If they were not so in our face, than I and other pastors would not feel the need to set the record straight on what God says about their behavior.

You picked a fight, like I said , where there is no fight for you. If you desire a good debate, then write in an article what it is you believe and you will have the debate you want. Believe me, if you really do believe the things you state, then you will have oodles of FReepers who will be glad to take on your beliefs and debate. I actually think it would be a very lively debate, because you are so far off from the conservative Christian path, that you seem to be on an island by your self. So do yourself a favor and post an article on your understanding of the Scriptures and then we can really have the debate you desire.
30 posted on 05/18/2009 9:01:43 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: XeniaSt
Paul only used the Sabbath day as a time he could meet the Jews who met at the Synagogues. He knew that on the sabbath there would be the best audience for him to reach. So while you say he kept the Sabbath, I say he only used the day that Jews did for expedience purpose.

You have yet to answer Paul's statement to the Colossians. If Paul wanted us to keep the Sabbath, than please explain Colossians 2:16-17 in that light. You are obviously a Messianic Jew and that is why you hold onto the Sabbath. Well that is the same thing Paul and the other Apostles kept facing in that your ancestors, I speak metaphorically, even wanted gentiles to be circumcised. You need to drop the Mosaic Law and come to the realization that God fulfilled the Law in Christ.
31 posted on 05/18/2009 9:07:55 AM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike
Paul only used the Sabbath day as a time he could meet the Jews who met at the Synagogues. He knew that on the sabbath there would be the best audience for him to reach. So while you say he kept the Sabbath, I say he only used the day that Jews did for expedience purpose.

You have yet to answer Paul's statement to the Colossians. If Paul wanted us to keep the Sabbath, than please explain Colossians 2:16-17 in that light. You are obviously a Messianic Jew and that is why you hold onto the Sabbath. Well that is the same thing Paul and the other Apostles kept facing in that your ancestors, I speak metaphorically, even wanted gentiles to be circumcised. You need to drop the Mosaic Law and come to the realization that God fulfilled the Law in Christ.

Paul went to the synagogue on Shabbat because YHvH commanded it.

Yah'shua(Jesus) worshiped on Shabbat and taught the Pharisees
not to follow Traditions of Man in celebrating Shabbat.

As James, brother of Yah'shua ruled at the Council
of Jerusalem that gentiles should go to hear YHvH's Word on Shabbat.

James identified the only place YHvH's Word
was/is preached was at synagogues on Shabbat.

YHvH commanded worship on Shabbat.

YHvH never changed that command.

The Pagan Pontiff of Roman church changed
worship to the pagan day of the sun.

On Colossians 2:16-17 I'm afraid you have been misled
through Eisgesis, where the the argument is framed
in order to prove a pre-determined outcome.

You need to drop the Mosaic Law
and come to the realization that God fulfilled the Law in Christ.

You have been misled, daily we use the blood of the Lamb of G-d to cover our sins.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
32 posted on 05/18/2009 10:33:53 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: XeniaSt
You have been misled, daily we use the blood of the Lamb of G-d to cover our sins. shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

Wrong, the blood of the Lamb wipes our sins away, it does not just cover them like the animal skins that the Lord gave Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness. It is true that every lamb, bull, and dove, oxen or any other animal ever sacrificed by God's people from Adam to the last passover lamb slain before Christ was crucified, just covered up mans sin.

However, when God became man, He lived a perfect existence and as the perfect man He died for our sins as the perfect Lamb. His blood was spilled and sprinkled upon the mercy seat of heaven and washed away our sins, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. You need to know that Christ died to forgive the sins, not cover them up.

Along with dieing for the sins of those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior, He also died to fulfill the Law that no man could. By fulfilling the Law, we are not bound by it. Read all of Paul's letters, you will see that Paul lays to rest the nonsense of what you believe.

What you also need need to understand is that the observance of Sunday rather than Saturday does not violate God’s Commandments at all! The Sabbath command in the Old Testament never specified a “Saturday” observance; rather, it was simply a command that we should observe a cycle of six days of work and then rest for one day. So obviously, the intent of the Sabbath command is kept when we rest on Saturday or on Sunday, it really doesn’t matter.

Not only that, but there is also some evidence that Sunday worship was practiced in the New Testament Church. As an example, in Acts we read about an evening meeting of the church on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7) . And Paul instructed the Corinthians to take up a collection on the first day of the week (1 Cor. 16:2) . When John says in Revelation that he was “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) , he appears to be referring to a day of the week set aside for the Lord, and not the traditional, Jewish Sabbath day.

In fact, in none of these passages is Sunday worship commanded. Christians are no more required to make Sunday their day of rest than they are to make Saturday their day of rest. However, of course, they are perfectly free to do so. In fact, to criticize Sunday observance and then to separate from the rest of the church over something like this, is both legalistic and divisive.

You need to quit focusing on the letter of the Law because all that was a shadow of things to come, but Christ is the substance of what was expected and looked forward to. So when Christ came he did away with the Law.
33 posted on 05/18/2009 1:49:39 PM PDT by Freepmanchew ( <:)))>< Proverbs 30:7-9)
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To: Freepmanchew
XS> You have been misled, daily we use the blood of the Lamb of G-d to cover our sins.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

Wrong, the blood of the Lamb wipes our sins away, it does not just cover them like the animal skins that the Lord gave Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness. It is true that every lamb, bull, and dove, oxen or any other animal ever sacrificed by God's people from Adam to the last passover lamb slain before Christ was crucified, just covered up mans sin.

However, when God became man, He lived a perfect existence and as the perfect man He died for our sins as the perfect Lamb. His blood was spilled and sprinkled upon the mercy seat of heaven and washed away our sins, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. You need to know that Christ died to forgive the sins, not cover them up.

Along with dieing for the sins of those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior, He also died to fulfill the Law that no man could. By fulfilling the Law, we are not bound by it. Read all of Paul's letters, you will see that Paul lays to rest the nonsense of what you believe.

What you also need need to understand is that the observance of Sunday rather than Saturday does not violate God’s Commandments at all! The Sabbath command in the Old Testament never specified a “Saturday” observance; rather, it was simply a command that we should observe a cycle of six days of work and then rest for one day. So obviously, the intent of the Sabbath command is kept when we rest on Saturday or on Sunday, it really doesn’t matter.

Not only that, but there is also some evidence that Sunday worship was practiced in the New Testament Church. As an example, in Acts we read about an evening meeting of the church on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7) . And Paul instructed the Corinthians to take up a collection on the first day of the week (1 Cor. 16:2) . When John says in Revelation that he was “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) , he appears to be referring to a day of the week set aside for the Lord, and not the traditional, Jewish Sabbath day.

In fact, in none of these passages is Sunday worship commanded. Christians are no more required to make Sunday their day of rest than they are to make Saturday their day of rest. However, of course, they are perfectly free to do so. In fact, to criticize Sunday observance and then to separate from the rest of the church over something like this, is both legalistic and divisive.

You need to quit focusing on the letter of the Law because all that was a shadow of things to come, but Christ is the substance of what was expected and looked forward to. So when Christ came he did away with the Law.

Lots of assertions are made.

However no scriptural support.

Acts 20:7 The first day of the week begins at sundown Saturday evening;
the Oneg (meal after Shabbat) begins then.

1 Cor 16:2 see above

Rev 1:10 What day does YHvH(the L-rd) define as His day ?

So when Christ came he did away with the Law.

Does that mean you practice lawlessness ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
34 posted on 05/18/2009 4:30:25 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: XeniaSt
When speaking of changing the Sabbath we must look at what was done by Christ or by his authority. After all, Christ has a right to make such a change (Mark 2:23-28). As Creator, Christ was the original Lord of the Sabbath (John 1:3 & Hebrew 1:10). It was originally a memorial of creation. A work vastly greater than that of creation has now been accomplished by him, the work of redemption. We would naturally expect just such a change as would make the Sabbath a memorial of that greater work.

True, we can give no text authorizing the change in so many words. We have no express law declaring the change. But there are evidences of another kind. We know for a fact that the first day of the week has been observed from apostolic times, and the necessary conclusion is, that it was observed by the apostles and their immediate disciples. This, we may be sure, they never would have done without the permission or the authority of their Lord.

After his resurrection, which took place on the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1 & Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1 & John 20:1), we never find Christ meeting with his disciples on the seventh day. But he specially honored the first day by manifesting himself to them on four separate occasions (Matthew 28:9 & Luke 24:34; Luke 18-33 & John 20:19-23). Again, on the next first day of the week, Jesus appeared to his disciples (John 20:26).

Some have calculated that Christ's ascension took place on the first day of the week. And there can be no doubt that the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost was on that day (Acts 2:1). Thus Christ appears as instituting a new day to be observed by his people as the Sabbath, a day to be henceforth known amongst them as the “Lord's day.” The observance of this “Lord's day” as the Sabbath was the general custom of the primitive churches, and must have had apostolic sanction (compare Acts 20:3-7 &; 1Corinthians 16:1 & 1Corinthians 16:2) and authority, and so the sanction and authority of Jesus Christ.

Now let me barrow something from Albert Barnes who lived from 1798 – 1870.

He was a Presbyterian minister who produced a number of valuable commentaries on the Bible. He wrote Old Testament commentaries on Job, Psalms, Isaiah, and Daniel, and a complete set on the New Testament. Barnes has written extensively on the subject of the lord's Day which I referenced in the last paragraph. This is what he has to say about the Lords day as to how John the Apostle used it in (Revelations 1:10.)

On the Lord’s day - The word rendered here as “Lord’s” (κυριακῇ kuriakē), occurs only in this (Revelation 1:10) place and in (1Corinthians 11:20), where it is applied to the Lord’s supper. It properly means “pertaining to the Lord”; and, so far as this word is concerned, it might mean a day “pertaining to the Lord,” in any sense, or for any reason; either because he claimed it as his own, and had set it apart for his own service, or because it was designed to commemorate some important event pertaining to him, or because it was observed in honor of him. It is clear:(1) That this refers to some day which was distinguished from all other days of the week, and which would be sufficiently designated by the use of this term.
(2) that it was a day which was for some reason regarded as especially a day of the Lord, or especially devoted to him.
(3) it would further appear that this was a day particularly devoted to the Lord Jesus; for:
(a) that is the natural meaning of the word “Lord” as used in the New Testament (compare the notes on Acts 1:24); and
(b) if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word “Sabbath” would have been used.

The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians (about 101 a.d.), who calls the Lord’s day “the queen and prince of all days.” Chrysostom (on Psalm 119) says, “It was called the Lord’s day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day.” Later fathers make a marked distinction between the “Sabbath” and the “Lord’s day”; meaning by the former the Jewish “Sabbath,” or the seventh day of the week, and by the latter the first day of the week, kept holy by Christians. So Theodoret (Fab. Haeret. ii. 1), speaking of the Ebionites, says, “They keep the Sabbath according to the Jewish law, and sanctify the Lord’s day in like manner as we do” (Prof. Stuart). The strong probability is, that the name was given to this day in honor of the Lord Jesus, and because he rose on that day from the dead. No one can doubt that it was an appellation given to the first day of the week; and the passage, therefore, proves that that day was thus early distinguished in some special manner, so that the mere mention of it would be sufficient to identify it in the minds of those to whom the apostle wrote.
(Albert Barnes notes on the Bible)

36 posted on 05/18/2009 6:55:20 PM PDT by Freepmanchew ( <:)))>< Proverbs 30:7-9)
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To: Chris DeWeese; Freepmanchew; XeniaSt
Ok, to start with, I pinged you because I like discussing religious topics with those who are willing to step up and put their thoughts forward for a good debate. You have proven to be of such a person, so no it was not an oops. I may not convince you, and you may not convince me, however I do would appreciate a civil discourse that will allow for both of us to retain a our respect for each other when we leave.

speaking of describing sin you stated,,,,,,,,
Well, by using scripture instead of making up your own definition, duh.

All words are gifted to us in a way that we can use them to describe what it is we are talking about. Remember, this article was written for those who may have never even opened a Bible, so I could have used that definition, but then I would have had to use the limited number of words I was given to explain what law was being violated for sin to be lawlessness. Is it American law? Modern Jewish law? No, but ancient Judaic law as prescribed in the Scriptures. Now speaking to you and many who already have a background for the law we speak of, my space could have been limited, but I wasn't speaking to you per say. So the best description (quantified by the audience which I wrote for) I have ever heard for sin would be, “anything that falls short of the perfection of a perfect God”!

I disagree. It is possible to please God, through faith manifest outwardly as works - both good charitable works as well as sanctification.

We have no disagreement here, again I stated for my targeted audience that we all have sinned, and thus fall short of the glory of God. We can be cleansed by the blood of Christ and be forgiven, but to God we are still filthy. We may be robed in the righteousness of Christ, but until we have left this world and been given a new body, we cannot physically stand in the presence of a perfect undefiled God. It is to that point that I came from as to why, outside of Christ being our propitiation before God to answer for our transgressions, we cannot please God. Even our good works are but dung, because we are not saved by our works, our works are just the evidence that we are saved. God says that all our righteous works are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6), Jesus tells us in that no one but God is good, No One. Does God smile when we do that which we are called to do, I agree He does, but only because of the price His Son paid for our transgressions, because even in our desire to please Him we still fall drastically short of doing it right.

I want to know how you can teach that the first 4 commandments are not binding and that they can be interpreted out of the Christian's life but how homosexuality still is a sin.

Where in my article did I even mention that 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th commandments were obsolete? I did post a comment with an article about the subject of the Sabbath that was brought up, but not in connection with my article, I'll mention more on that in my conclusion of this comment. However, you seemed to have a problem with my bringing up point that false teachers have twisted the Scriptures to justify the immoral behavior of homosexuality. Do you really have a problem with me trying to help those who are caught up in the gay lifestyle by telling them the truth of where the Scriptures stand? Especially since they are the ones who constantly bring it up. When are we supposed address the problem? After our children have been forced by an ever intrusive government to accept it as normal? It is my duty as a Christian to tell the truth, and the truth is, those who say the Bible condones that behavior so we can now allow same-sex marriages are wrong.

I have written extensively on many subjects, and have given sermons on many of the books of the Bible. How do you know what I have or not have covered? As for the topic of my article being on a subject you may think many Christians dwell upon too much, I think most Christians do not think about it enough. If they did, the current debate about same-sex marriage would not be as advanced in our society as it is. If there were those in our society that wanted to justify public nudity, and states were passing legislation for it, and judges ruled it normal by fiat, then I would probably write about that.

and then I'll answer all the questions you have about the response to worshiping on the wrong day of the week that you cut and pasted into this thread, OK?

Ok, now my reason for commenting on the question of the Sabbath. As for my “cut and paste” article, I gave due credit to the author of the article I presented for your consideration. I could have reinvented the wheel, but why should I? There are millions of well written theologians who have answered every one of your questions. I have no problem with the way they took on your idea of the Sabbath, but in the future if I decide to write an article about the Sabbath I will then use my own words to do it. However, I again point out that the aim of my article was to debunk the false teachers who claim that the Scriptures and Jesus condone the gay lifestyle, not the reasons many evangelicals do not honor the Sabbath.

You say your opinions are all over FR for anyone to read, OK. However, I have yet to read an article you wrote that can be displayed for all to debate and discuss. If there was one, then I missed it and maybe you can give me the FR link to the thread. Articles are much better to ascertain ones belief than many comments spread throughout various threads. I really do think that you and XeniaST should get together and put forth your reasoning in one concise article. It really could be a great thread because of all the differing opinions held by the many Freepers who discuss religion. I for one would look forward to it and relish the debate that would ensue, we could all benefit, and that can only be good for all. Do you not agree?

Finally.......It doesn't look like I'm the one gunning for a fight here, dude.

Maybe fight was too strong of a word, but either way I do enjoy debating with others, the points I make in my articles. In the future I look forward to lively discussions with you over them. If however, you want off my ping list then please let me know and I will honor your desire. If not, then some time in the near future I will write about my opinions on the subjects you brought to my attention, I have too now.

I hope I did not come off as being argent or angry, that is not my desire, I honestly desire to have open dialogs about the differences we have.
God Bless you and yours,
OV

37 posted on 05/19/2009 10:12:09 AM PDT by Freepmanchew ( <:)))>< Proverbs 30:7-9)
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Freepmanchew
When speaking of changing the Sabbath we must look at what was done by Christ or by his authority. After all, Christ has a right to make such a change (Mark 2:23-28). As Creator, Christ was the original Lord of the Sabbath (John 1:3 & Hebrew 1:10). It was originally a memorial of creation. A work vastly greater than that of creation has now been accomplished by him, the work of redemption. We would naturally expect just such a change as would make the Sabbath a memorial of that greater work.

True, we can give no text authorizing the change in so many words. We have no express law declaring the change. But there are evidences of another kind. We know for a fact that the first day of the week has been observed from apostolic times, and the necessary conclusion is, that it was observed by the apostles and their immediate disciples. This, we may be sure, they never would have done without the permission or the authority of their Lord.

After his resurrection, which took place on the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1 & Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1 & John 20:1), we never find Christ meeting with his disciples on the seventh day. But he specially honored the first day by manifesting himself to them on four separate occasions (Matthew 28:9 & Luke 24:34; Luke 18-33 & John 20:19-23). Again, on the next first day of the week, Jesus appeared to his disciples (John 20:26). Some have calculated that Christ's ascension took place on the first day of the week. And there can be no doubt that the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost was on that day (Acts 2:1). Thus Christ appears as instituting a new day to be observed by his people as the Sabbath, a day to be henceforth known amongst them as the “Lord's day.” The observance of this “Lord's day” as the Sabbath was the general custom of the primitive churches, and must have had apostolic sanction (compare Acts 20:3-7 &; 1Corinthians 16:1 & 1Corinthians 16:2) and authority, and so the sanction and authority of Jesus Christ.

Did Yah'shua violate the Sabbath NO; He did not!
He violated the "man made Traditions" surrounding the Sabbath.

Yah'shua rebuked the Pharisees for their "man-made " Traditions about the Sabbath

Did Yah’shua teach about the Sabbath ? Yes !

See Matthew 12, Matthew 24, Matthew 28,
Mark 1, Mark 2, Mark 3, Mark 6, Mark 15, Mark 16,
Luke 4, Luke 6, Luke 13, Luke 14, Luke 23,
John 5, John 7, John 9, John 19, Acts 1

Did Yah’shua change the day of worship from Shabbat to Sunday ? NO !

Did the creator of the universe say:
Stop worshipping me on the the day that I have commanded since Genesis ?

Did Yah'shua say: I've changed my mind; I now want you to worship on the Pagan day of the sun ?

To whom does the New Covenant ( Jeremiah 31 ) refer and what does it detail ?

Circumcision of the flesh clearly has been replaced with circumcision of the heart.

Yah'shua said :

NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Paul commanded the Colossians to ignore the Pagans and to observe the Holy Feasts of YHvH
NAsbU Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge
in regard to food or drink
or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Shabbat--
Yah'shua rose from the dead on the YHvH commanded feast of First Fruits see Leviticus 23:10-20

Which is the day following the Shabbat following Pesach.

The day beginning at sundown on "Saturday" and extending to sundown on "Sunday".

John 20:19 Evening of the first day would be "Saturday" evening.

John 20:26 after eight days would be "Monday" or Tuesday"

Forty day after Yah'shua rose from the dead would be the 40th of the counting of the Omer to Shavuot.

FORTY DAYS

There are eight of such great periods on the surface of the Bible:

  • Forty days Moses was in the mount, Exo 24:18; and to receive the Law, Exo 24:18.
  • Forty days Moses was in the mount after the sin of the Golden Calf, Deut 9:18,25.
  • Forty days of the spies, issuing in the penal sentence of the 40 years, Num 13:26, 14:34.
  • Forty days of Elijah in Horeb, 1 Kings 19:8.
  • Forty days of Jonah and Nineveh, Jonah 3:4.
  • Forty days Ezekiel lay on his right side to symbolize the 40 years of Judah's transgression.*
  • Forty days Jesus was tempted of the Devil, Matt 4:2.
  • Forty days Jesus was seen of His disciples, speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God, Acts 1:2.

from
Number in Scripture:
Its Supernatural Design and Spiritual Significance
by
E. W. Bullinger
(1837-1913)

The fortieth day of the counting of the Omer is always from
"Thursday" evening through "Friday" evening.
The day Yah'shua ascended into heaven is a "Friday".
"Friday" being the last day of work before Shabbat

If you were familiar with YHvH's commanded Feasts you would know that Shavuot(Pentecost)
is always seven weeks plus one day after the YHvH commanded Feast of First Fruits.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
39 posted on 05/19/2009 6:17:14 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: XeniaSt

I have come to the conclusion you really do not believe Paul was a true disciple of Christ do you?


40 posted on 05/24/2009 5:42:51 PM PDT by OneVike (Just a Christian waiting to go home)
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