Hebrew DNA found in South America? [OPEN]

Was Hebrew DNA recently found in American Indian populations in South America? According to Scott R. Woodward, executive director of Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, a DNA marker, called the "Cohen modal haplotype," sometimes associated with Hebrew people, has been found in Colombia, Brazil and Bolivia.

But it probably has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon -- at least not directly.

For years several critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of the Book of Mormon have claimed that the lack of Hebrew DNA markers in living Native American populations is evidence the book can't be true. They say the book's description of ancient immigrations of Israelites is fictional.

"But," said Woodward, "as Hugh Nibley used to say, 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "

Critic Thomas Murphy, for example, wrote in one article about how the Cohen modal haplotype had been found in the Lemba clan in Africa. The Lemba clan's oral tradition claims it has Jewish ancestors.

Murphy then complained, "If the (Book of Mormon) documented actual Israelite migrations to the New World, then one would expect to find similar evidence to that found in a Lemba clan in one or more Native American populations. Such evidence, however, has not been forthcoming."

So will Murphy and other critics use this new evidence of Hebrew DNA markers to prove the Book of Mormon is correct? Probably not. But neither should anyone else.

According to Woodward, the way critics have used DNA studies to attack the Book of Mormon is "clearly wrong." And it would be equally wrong to use similar DNA evidence to try to prove it.

According to Woodward, while forensic DNA (popularized in TV shows like "CSI") looks for the sections of DNA that vary greatly from individual to individual, the sections of DNA used for studying large groups are much smaller and do not change from individual to individual.

Studies using this second type of DNA yield differing levels of reliability or, as Woodward calls it, "resolution."

At a lower resolution the confidence in the results goes down. At higher resolution confidence goes up in the results.

The critics' problem now is what they do with the low-resolution discovery of Hebrew DNA in American Indian populations.

For people who believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account, the problem is to resist the temptation to misuse this new discovery.

Woodward says that most likely, when higher-resolution tests are used, we will learn that the Hebrew DNA in native populations can be traced to conquistadors whose ancestors intermarried with Jewish people in Spain or even more modern migrations.

Ironically, it is the misuse of evidence that gave critics fuel to make their DNA arguments in the first place. According to Woodward, the critics are attacking the straw man that all American Indians are only descendants of the migrations described in the Book of Mormon and from no other source.

Although some Latter-day Saints have assumed this was the case, this is not a claim the Book of Mormon itself actually makes. Scholars have argued for more than 50 years that the book allows for the migrations meeting an existing population.

This completely undermines the critics' conclusions. They argue with evangelic zeal that the Book of Mormon demands that no other DNA came to America but from Book of Mormon groups.

Woodward also sees that it is essential to read the Book of Mormon story closely to understand what type of DNA the Book of Mormon people would have had. The Book of Mormon describes different migrations to the New World. The most prominent account is the 600-B.C. departure from Jerusalem of a small group led by a prophet named Lehi. But determining Lehi's DNA is difficult because the book claims he is not even Jewish, but a descendant of the biblical Joseph.

According to Woodward, even if you assume we knew what DNA to look for, finding DNA evidence of Book of Mormon people may be very difficult. When a small group of people intermarry into a large population, the DNA markers that might identify their descendants could entirely disappear -- even though their genealogical descendants could number in the millions.

This means it is possible that almost every American Indian alive today could be genealogically related to Lehi's family but still retain no identifiable DNA marker to prove it. In other words, you could be related genealogically to and perhaps even feel a spiritual kinship with an ancestor but still not have any vestige of his DNA.

"I don't dismiss the possibility," said Woodward, "but the probability is pretty low."

Woodward speculated about it, imagining he were able to identify pieces of DNA that would be part of Lehi's gene pool. Then, imagine if a match was found in the Native American population.

But even then, Woodward would be cautious. "It could have been other people who share the same (DNA) markers," said Woodward about the imaginary scenario.

"It's an amazingly complex picture. To think that you can prove (group relationships) like you can use DNA to identify a (criminal) is not on the same scale of scientific inquiry."

Like the Book of Mormon itself, from records buried for centuries in the Hill Cumorah, genetic "proof" may remain hid up unto the Lord.

Joseph smith did not chose to a be a prophet,
_______________________________________

Well, why did he pretend to be one then ????

Joey Smith was in it for the money, the women, and the power to abuse other people and get away with it....

Joe Smith just wanted an easy scam to get money, sex and some power over others...

He didnt start out to be a “prophet” but he found he could make a “profit” and scam his own followers easier, so he called himself a “prophet”

Joey Smith and his family got into anything where they could get an easy buck...Joey Smith was a lazy good for nothi ng and had no work ethic...Being a Prophet” with others as his slaves was right up his alley...Easy money, easy street...

Joey Smith pretended to start a bank and cheated his own people out of their life savings..and printed his own phony money...$3 bills included...Joey Smith was convicted and had to pay a fine of $1,000...

Joey Smith dabbled in the occult throughout his whole life...He died with an occult medal of Jupiter around his neck...

the fortune telling his family did was one easy way they made money...

Besides the stealing and trickery...The peep stone money digging scam got Joey Smith into trouble and as early as 1826, he was convicted several times of monmey digging and fraud and for being a disorderly person etc...

Prophets of God never seduced and debauched under age girls, and started sex clubs for his friends to cover up his sins...but the perverted Joey Smith did...

Prophets of God were not habitual drunks and ran their own bar...but Joey Smith was...

Prophets of God never boastyed that they werte greatwer than Jesus...but Joey Smith did..

Prophets of God did not start secret societies in order to have a sop[ecial gang of cutthroats who terrorized and murderer innocent people...but Joey Smith did...

Joey Smith was not a prophet of the God of the Bible...

Joey Smith was just a convicted jailbird, evel boaster, rapist, murderer, thief, apostate, adulterer, wife abuser, liar, pagan, and enemy of the God of the Bible

Joe Smith was just like the guy who started Scientology ...

“The quickest way to make one million dollars is to start a religion” (L. Ron Hubbard)

I find it interesting to note how many times some of the Prophecies of the Bible will be fulfilled, Jesus has established his kingdom many times on the earth, yet since it exists in the afterlife, it has never been destroyed, only destroyed off the face of the earth.

(Oh, this is encouraging. Now we know that Jesus can defend his kingdom on his own turf -- like heaven (or perhaps Kolobian Heights?)...but when it comes to more neutral turf -- like Planet Earth...the Mormon jesus was no match for Satan)... Oh, and BTW, did you come up with this desperado apologetic to explain away Matthew 16 ? -- or are you just mouthing some other LDS apologist who came up with his lame justification?

Yes, he does talk about the Book of Mormon in the Bible: [You cite Eze 37:15-17] I have a really neat set of Scriptures, it's called a Quad, we have the Bible (stick of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (stick of Joseph)...This is literal fulfillment of this scripture!

How thee error. (Let me count thy ways you are unfaithful to the context of both Ezekiel and the Old Testament). Delf, your 19th-century read-in doesn't fit the word usage, literary, historical facts -- or the context.

CONTEXT

Ezekiel context: Ezekiel 37:21-22 clearly shows the context is the uniting of tribes in Israel in one land.
Biblical context: Nowhere in the Bible is a stick used to symbolize a scroll.

...the Book of Mormon (stick of Joseph)...
Your broader partial Quad context: If the Bible calls itself the "stick of Judah," then why does the Book of Mormon never call itself "the stick of Joseph?"

HISTORICAL

...the Bible (stick of Judah)
(a) According to 1 Kings 12:16-24, these tribes were divided (cf. 2 Kings) -- 2 Kingdoms, Judah & Israel.
(b) This stick is a piece of cutwood. The idea of taking a rod (this Hebrew word for "stick" is translated "planks" in Eze 41:25 and "timber" in Eze 26:12) and writing on it to represent one or more tribes of Israel was known...Moses was given instruction to do so in Numbers 17:1-9.
(c) The Bible doesn't record primarily the history of the Hebrew tribe of Judah, but ALL the tribes! Only in Chronicles & a few prophetic writings is Judah given special attention.

WORD USAGE, LITERARY

I have a really neat set of Scriptures...all in one book.
Of course, this is a HUGE assumption on your part -- that "stick" = "scroll."

I think this citation says it best:

The issue I would like to talk about is the claim by the LDS church that the stick mentioned here is supposedly scroll. In my opinion, the Mormons fail to demonstrate biblical honesty in this regard because NOWHERE in the Bible is a stick used to symbolize a scroll. Ezekiel refers to “a roll of the book,” KJV or “In it was a scroll,” NIV in Ezekiel 2:9 leaves no doubt of what he meant to say.

The Hebrew used is "ates," which is translated as “stick” only 14 times in the entire Old Testament, 8 times right in this passage. It is the ONLY word translated stick in the Bible, but it is also rendered in other ways. It is translated “planks” in Ezekiel 41:25 and as “timber” in Ezekiel 26:12. It is mostly rendered as “tree” (163 times) as it is in Ezekiel 36:30. Of the more than 300 times it is used, IT NEVER REFERS TO SCROLLS. Actually, if "ates" had been translated by any number of possible English words other then “stick” like wood as in Ezekiel 24:10 and over 100 other times, THE LDS READING OF THIS PROPHECY WOULD SIMPLY NOT EXIST. This is because the idea of a second record or scripture (Book of Mormon) is based solely on the English KJV and has no support from the original Hebrew. http://forums.planet-tonga.com/viewtopic.php?t=29658&sid=6745abc94b105d5a92c51eb0d22dc744

Unlike you, I do not post anything that I cannot back up.

Have you seen my fair lady? <Professor Henry Higgins Voice> HA! HA! HA! HA!<Professor Henry Higgins Voice> Please explain how you get a valid result on a DNA test with corrupted DNA to test. We are all waiting with baited breath to see how you can *Back up* your assertions here which so far are unsupported by even the mos gossamer of spiderweb threads.

The scandal surrounding Hibben – the official ‘discover’ of the LLS Nice try, but Hibben didn't get there until the 1930's but the rock was discovered in the 1850's (oops) long before Hibben went there, there are rubbings that predate hibben's visit stored at the Smithsonian. Those rubbings are important because the bumbler Hibben actually used a wire brush and a chisel to clean the stone and sharpen the characters before he took photographs of it (what an idiot!) Luckily a comparison with the rubbbings have authenticated that he did not actually change any of the characters.

Let's get a bit of perspective on this stone from a site run by Indians about their history: Windwalkerscouts.org

Some background information on the history of the Inscription Rock
People were already aware of the inscription when New Mexico became a territory in 1850, but no one could read it back then, mainly because the old-Hebrew or Phoenician alphabet in which this rock is inscribed was mostly unknown among scholars or archaeologists at that time. (1) The site is located some few miles west of the small New Mexican town of Los Lunas, about an hour's car drive south of Albuquerque. The inscription is carved into the flat face of a large boulder resting on the north-eastern side of the so-called Hidden Mountain. Local Indians told the then landowner Franz Huning in 1871 that the monument predated their tribes coming to the area

About one century later, in 1949, Robert H. Pfeiffer of the Harvard University, made a first known translation of the strange writing. Being an authority on the Old Testament (the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible) he concluded that the inscription was a copy of the Ten Commandments. He thought that the inscription was written in the Phoenician, the Moabite, and the Greek languages. Indeed, some local native American Indians, as a result of his work, have been refering to this rock as the Phoenician Inscription Rock. Professor Pfeiffer never stated at that time whom he thought carved the message. Many locals have been calling this site the "Ten Commandments Rock" ever since.

So, in your fanciful universe, the stone discovered by hibbens was altered or even carved by him to look like Hebrew and thus lend support to the LDS church?

In real history, the rock is at least a hundred years older than that with others having been puzzled by it's existence.

Now let's address Nibley's remarks. The LDS Church is not interested in proving the Book of Mormon "true" by archaeological means, because then people would not need faith and would not need to ask God to testify of it to them. This would in the church's eyes be a significant loss in that people would not exercise their faith in learning of it, and therefore the people would be weaker. That said, all Hugh Nibely was aware of when he made those statements was Hibben's work and no scholar wants to go near him which is understandable.

Now that is just the one rock, what else is lying around out there near los lunas?

Indian Petroglyphs at the Los Lunas site The Decalogue inscription is located at the foot of the Hidden Mountains on the north-eastern side, at the only accessible pathway going up. However, there are other artifacts of interest, too. When James D. Tabor did his survey of the whole site in 1996 he reported the existence of some leftovers of an ancient habitation (see 8). If there was an ancient fortification, as he claims there was, it certainly is not immediately visible from the ground to the untrained eye. However, the whole site, especially the top and the north-eastern rocks and slopes, are covered with petroglyphs.

The researcher David Deal has published a detailed analysis for one of these petroglyphs (3) . It depicts a sky-map, laid out on a flat rock, recording the positions of the planets and constellations during a solar eclipse. It coincides with the solar eclipse on September 15, 107 B.C.E., to be followed by the Jewish "Rosh Ha Shannah" on the next day. This interesting discovery was first published by David Deal back in 1984. "Rosh Ha Shanah" is the first day of the Jewish month of "Tishri". "Ethanim" was the old-Hebrew name for "Tishri" referring to the seventh lunar month of the sacred calendar of the Israelites. It was also regarded as the first month of their secular calendar, especially in an agricultural sense. Like David Deal, James D. Tabor, too, emphasizes the significance between the date of the Los Lunas solar eclipse on September 15 107 B.C.E. and the Jewish New Year. However, he thinks both events were on the same day (8).

So let's reacap, you base your whole objection to the stone (at least on this post) to a person who is not the first person to discover the stone.

Nice try, luckily, we have information going back about a hundred years, and other stones he did not find in the area with other inscriptions dating back to before Christ. Unless it's now your contention that Hibben carved those stones accurately (which it is doubtful he could have done) and then failed to report them to the new yorker along with everything else.

The Tel Dan interpretation is highly disputed and can hardly be considered final since the Tel Dan inscription was on a prepared piece of stone – while this is not. Good ‘ol proto Hebrew again huh Du?

So, if you carve a stone that has been faced to make it flat that means you can't write in a the same language as you would on a smaller stone with all the sides faced? What exactly are you on and is it legal? I am amazed that you could write this with a straight face. (It's not English your honor because it was written with a pencil, and as everyone knows English can only be written with a pen.)

This is funny.

Did the Nephites have use of Greek when they left Jerusalem – NO. The fact that there are mixed characters not only denies a Nephi/Lamanite connection, but a Hebrew one as well. Well, so much for ‘proto Hebrew’

You really should read the Book of Mormon, if you had, you'd not have asked the question.

First Nephi 1:1-2

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

Lehi was a trader, he spoke many languages, and read and wrote in them. The children were taught all these languages too. You really should not ask questions you don't want answered.

The first three verses of First Nephi make up what is known as a colophon, which is a formal introductory section found in many ancient documents. Again, this is something no 18XX's farm boy would know about...

Next you ask why the church is not using these artifacts. Why should they?

Next you claim Nahom can be pronounced many different ways (the you say potato defense :-)

The fact that Joseph rendered it Nahom, and there is a place pronounced Nahom in the right place inside Arabia, this doesn't strike you as a bit of either insane luck or else something more than luck? Add to Nahom the fact that it's the right distance south, and due east of Nahom happens to be the only place in Arabia that matches Nephi's description of "Bountiful". Again, to you it's all chicanery of some sort. (I could do the knock knock thing here, but why? Is anyone really impressed with schoolyard antics here?)

JFTR, Nephi's Bountiful is not an oasis, it is on the sea and they built the ships there to sail to the Americas.

So on the basis of some teeth, we have unimpeachable evidence of horses in bom times? Actually, they have found entire skeletons, but until recently, they just tossed them aside. we now have carbon dated skeletons of horses from before Christ in the Americas. I just offered evidence of a positive, go prove your negative if you have to (this will be funny)

Here DU drifts off into the classical mormon polemtic attack on the person’s character rather than the facts

Do you remember this "Hello (knock, knock), anyone home DU? " you have been insulting me the whole way, I question your relationship with reality and suddenly "that's a bad thing to do." If you don't have a mirror, I'll gladly buy you one, because you really should see yourself better.

Your BYU professor ‘superstar’ is tarnished by misrepresenting Rosenberg in order to make his religious point. That he became a mormon just goes to confirm that there is a fool born every minute.

Pot, you've already met skillet, now meet the Kettle!

Your argument that Keith Crandall misrepresented data because of his faith -- Before he joined the church, holds no water, it barely holds space.

Oh, so you have mormon’s able to explain the gastrobacterlogical DNA studies that show an asian origin for the native Americans?

What a load of ----... Wait actually that is what they were analyzing huh?

The Book of Mormon (if you'd finished it you'd know this) talks about others they met here, the gastrobacterlogical DNA could easily have come from them, so?

As I said, lots of crawdad articles, but none, nada, zero, zilch has been published in those same (or similar) journals making the claim that DNA evidence/data supports mormon theory that the Americas were populated by a small group of Hebrews – even in the most remote manner.

You remember Mormon, the Guy I keep quoting, yeah, the Guy the book was named after, Yeah him, he was if not the last, then one of the last Nephites, and he made a point of telling us he is "a pure descendant of Lehi" , now if the Lineage is as common as dirt, why bring it up? but if it's rare, and worse yet more common among the Nephites, well the Nephites are about to be wiped out (No genetics to find in modern Indians) The Book of Mormon, if you had read it, would have told you that the genetic claims you guys keep making just are not supported by the book you claim makes the claims, ergo you look pretty foolish proving the unprovable.

Then you claim based on no evidence that I can see, that Keith Crandall was being influenced to make false statements on tape or be punished by the church.

How much tin foil are you wearing? It's not enough, we can still hear you...

The number of Anti Mormons here who are Ex Mormons proves that it's not that hard to get out of the church, why doesn't he just leave if he doesn't like the church? (there are tons of universities that would fight over him, especially if he renounced the LDS faith as part of leaving... He's hardly trapped here in spite of your hyperbolic rhetoric.

Nahhhh

We have NAUGHT to repent of and we are all quite happy in attacking and dissassembling the plagiarism and fiction, the anaethema and blasphemous joke that is the bom/pogp/d and c...in short ALMOST ALL that is mormon doctrine.

Not necessarily (all of) today’s mormons as individuals - but mormonism - absolutely.

Nascent mormonism in 1830, polygamy-era mormonism from the 1840s or 1850s on until several years after Utah had been granted statehood, “reformed mormonism” that fervently hoped for Indians and black people to progressively have lighter and lighter skin as they drew nearer to the mormon god - until of course a “revelation” from a “living prophet” showed that SHAZZAM!! the mormon god had changed his mind after all.

(Guess that the darker skin WASN’T really his “mark of Cain” curse after all...so ol’ shyster Joe, the racist treasure-seeker and spirit medium, and all the subsequent alleged “living prophets” must not have been so prophetically accurate after all. Which is to say simply - none of them then could have actually been prophets! One hundred percent accuracy being the never-superseded OT mandate, and all...)

What is really sad, is that the First Council of Nicea failed to fully extinguish the heresy of Arianism, and so it survived with the Goths until the adherents were either converted to the truth of Christ, or killed, and that Gnosticism continued to prosper, notwithstanding the Apostle Paul’s learned efforts, and that though stone-cold dead at times, these heresies somehow managed to be revived and rolled all into one funky little package of fiction.

Knock knock - special delivery from Satan!

Little Joe had one of two problems going on when he was visited by the two personages:

One - he failed utterly to challenge the two of them to identify themselves, and whom they were aligned with. He did not “test every Spirit” as the Bible commanded. (of course maybe that part was not “correctly translated...) and so those Spirits had full latitude and every right to deceive him as much as they obviously did...

Satan is, after all, the “Prince of the power of the air” and was understood by men of G_d to have the ability to appear as a being of pure light; he was given power to deceive many...

or Two - Joe had more than a “pretty good” idea who the two might be - having had far more than passing involvement with necromancy (forbidden explicitly by the Lord), consulting with spirit mediums (again, forbidden expressly by the MOST HIGH), and therefore he had no interest in challenging their alliance.

Then again, telling such a long string of tales, whoppers, prevarications and outright heinous lies could easily confuse even a prodigious intellect into eventually tripping up on the tangled webstrands of his own practiced deceptions.

Smith was no different. How else can one explain that he repeatedly in the early days referred to the (second vision) “angel of the Lord” as Nephi, not Moroni?

I mean, the 1839 “History” of the church, dictated by Smith himself, states that the angel was “Nephi” not “Moroni” - and although mormons have repeatedly asserted that this was a “scribal error” - the simple fact is that Smith had plenty of time to correct this error and never did. It was repeated in “Times and Seasons” (1842) a reprint of the 1839 “History”.

Granted the way in which they try to explain it is by citing D & C, section 50 (1835) This revelation was received in 1830 and does mention “Moroni” - so the argument goes that Moroni was obviously known as the angel’s name all the way back in 1830.

BUT what today’s mormons DO NOT APPEAR TO KNOW is that when the revelation was originally given in 1830, and printed in the “Book of Commandments” as section 28 (1833) - - -

IT CONTAINED NO REFERENCE TO MORONI! This name was stuck in later.

This can be verified. Examine copies of the original revelation in “The Book of Commandments” in the non-LDS periodical, “The Telegraph” (Painesville, Ohio - April 19, 1831) and LDS publication “The Evening and Morning Star” (March 1833)

Also check into “The Joseph Smith Revelations, Text and Commentary” (H. Michael Marquardt) pages 72 through 75.

In Smith’s 1832 account it was an unidentified “angel of the Lord” that shares the news about plates “engraven by Moroni”

Obviously if the angel spoke ABOUT Moroni, he himself could NOT have been Moroni...notice please that the angel did not say “engravings which was engraven by me”, nor “I, Moroni, engraved these plates.”

Maybe this was no error on Smith’s part, but was instead related to the occult beliefs that were part and parcel of Joe’s ststem of theology at the time.

According to S. Michael Quinn,, the name “Nephi” is closely tied to various generic terms used by 19th century occultists for spirit messengers - called out by Magicians and Necromancers.

This would not be at all inconcistent with Smith later using the “seer-stone” in his hat - just as he had while conducting one of his many “treasure seeking” excursions...

Of course, that is just one thread of facts, relating to one version of the source and specifics of Smith’s revelation - and as is well known, there are not less than nine widely publicized versions.

Problem is, these cited publications cannot be retroactively unpublished/unprinted, nor can all the extant copies in various archives be eradicated and removed from public availability.

They’re out there, they chronicle the variances in what Smith said at different times, and just as the consistencies among various scrolls (Masoretic texts, Dead Sea Scrolls and many others) which differ vastly in known age uphold the consistency and accuracy of the Bible, and the singularly divine imprimatur thereto - so also do the manifold inconsistencies, contradictions, errors of zoology, biology, geography, anthropology, etc...impugn the authorship of the bom, pogp, D & C - as flawed, human, borrowed from not less than five different sources (including the original, best, and only acceptable Holy Bible).

That author, that plagiarist, the one who assimilated those divergent materials and melded them into the abomination of mormon doctrines - was Joseph Smith - a pretender to the sacred mantle of being a prophet of G_d.

G_d names and anoints His prophets, they do not name nor anoint themselves. Smith is no more a prophet of the one true G_d than Muhammad was.

He was no more a righteous, holy and just man, than I am the reincarnation of Julius Caesar.

He was a profligate, a thief, a convicted liar, a heretic, a cuckolder of his fellow men, a worm - guilty at least of attempted murder during his armed jailbreak, (whether he may have been a successful murderer is lost to history for now), and a hypocrite who used both tobacco and alcohol on at least a semi-regular basis even as he took up the pious banner of lecturing others on the virtue of temperance and teetotalling.

I myself drink on an itinerant basis at most; I do not need alcohol, but I do enjoy it from time to time, and I am not ashamed to partake - most especially not at the Lord’s Eucharist, taking wine and bread (as opposed to the meaningless and Spirit-less water and bread counterfeit). I have never been drunk in my life.

I also do not choose to smoke cigarettes, but I like a good Cuban cigar now and again.

I like a cup of coffee or two on a regular basis - one to three times a week. I enjoy my soda pop - caffeinated or non - anytime.

So then, just to be clear, I am not a hypocrite who postures himself one way, speaks another, and behaves in the end, yet another way.

Moderation in all things. I do not see in the Holy Bible where the Lord himself would condemn me for those choices, so I am quite certain that Joe Smith’s thoughts or words on the subject are of no weight whatsoever with Jesus.

Just as it was long before the accursed and hell-bound theology and doctrines of mormonism ever coalesced into existence, and began co-opting the real Jesus and attributing words to Him which He never spoke.

I get into heaven - the real, true, one and only heaven - on the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the cleansing blood he shed on the Cross. Nothing else whatsoever. He washed away ALL my iniquities - and all those of any and every brother and sister who believe and humbly call upon His name, for “There is no other name given under heaven by which men may be saved”

Yes, the Bible was compiled and translated by the “Catholic Church” - at that time there was not Roman or other - just Catholic, meaning “universal”, of course.

Yes there came later differences in what Protestants accepted as canon and what Eastern/Roman Catholics accepted as canon. But if you examine the nine additional books closely, it is evident that they change in no way whatsoever the picture that the remainder of accepted OT books paint of the character and nature of G_d, the manner of his dealings with Israel, or the types of people He chooses as His servants. Yes there came schism in 1054 between the Eastern and Roman rites - in summary, the sad culmination of a series of banns published by bishops against one another.

Resolution of those issues is being worked upon diligently even now between Metropolitan and Pope, Bishops and Cardinals.

But fundamentally, despite all the differences accumulated over centuries of Satan making concerted efforts to infiltrate and pervert and destroy the church (Protestant and Catholic alike), to advance the agendas of men rather than of G_d, we agree on the most basic of matters regarding the nature of G_d, of Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit which proceeds from them...

We know who our Lord is, and that the trinity is not some vain imagining, but reality supported by an honest look at the Bible - as opposed to the desperate parsing of every other word employed by Arianist would-be scholars attempting to justify their deviance and deception.

Protestant and Catholic faithful alike will enter heaven in great droves - granted entrance solely on the basis of their repentance of sins, acceptance of Christ and His forgiveness into their hearts and choosing to be born again.

And there is not a damned thing that the puffed-up braggart, Joseph Smith, can say or do about it.

A.A.C.

The View of the Hebrews

(18) Quetzalcotle (So often called in literature “The Mexican Messiah”):
The legends of Quetzalcotle are stated in the “View of the Hebrews” at some length, I greatly abbreviate. “The pyramids of Cholula was an altar dedicated to Quetzalcotle or the serpent of green feathers; as his name is said to imply. This is the most mysterious being of the whole Mexican mythology. He is said to be a white and bearded man. He was High Priest of Tula, legislator, chief of a religious sect, who inflicted on themselves the most cruel penance—”he appeased by his pennance divine wrath, (In other words atonement).—The reign of Quetzalcotle was a golden age of the people of Anahuac, he dwelt twenty years among them, ordered fasts and regulated the Taltic year. “He preached peace to men”- - -He disappeared after he had declared to the Cholulans that he would return and govern them again and renew their happiness.”
Ethan Smith speaks of him as “appeasing divine wrath,” “may have a striking allusion to the system of the Mosaic sacrifices including also the mediation of Moses, as a type of Christ, and God’s turning away his fierce wrath from Israel at his intercession as was repeatedly the case. (Ethan Smith “View of the Hebrews” pp. 206—)

The legitimate query: did this character spoken of in the “View of the Hebrews,” published five years before the Book of Mormon, furnish the suggestion of the Christ on the Western Continent?

The Book of Mormon

(18) The Messiah on the Western Continent:
It may be said that the chief event, the greatest and most important of all events in the Book of Mormon, is the appearance of the Christ—the Hebrew Messiah—in the western world. He was anticipated in prophecy, and spoken of in expectation of His coming, and the purpose of that coming. Finally, in third Nephi, a magnificent description of His appearing to the Nephites is given, an account of His ministry among the Nephites. His stay was comparatively brief, and when he departed in light and glory, He promised at some future time to return. (See III Nephi ch. 11 et sq.

(From “Studies of the Book of Mormon” by Brigham H Roberts,)

Nana’s Note...Ethan Smith, The man who wrote A View of the Hebrews was also the pastor of the church that Oliver Cowdery, and his family attended, DURING THE TIME OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE BOOK..

Oliver Cowdery was later one of the scribes for the book of mormon and became a extremely close and trusted buddy to Joey Smith within weeks of their meeting...

To the point that within one month of the start of their early acquaintance, Joey Smith wrote Chapter VII 1-5 of the Book of Commandments, which later became D&C 8:1-12, just for Oliver...telling him he could have anything he wanted...Hardly the type of thing that Joey Smith would have promised someone who was not of great use to him...but just an example of how people were manipulated by the conman, Joet Smith...
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Book of Commandments Chapter VII

A Revelation given to Oliver, in Harmony, Pennsylvania, April, 1829.

7:1 Oliver, verily, verily I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, which is your God and your Redeemer, even so sure shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with and honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which have been spoken, by the manifestation of my Spirit; yea, behold I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

7:2 Now, behold this is the Spirit of revelation:—behold this is the Spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red sea on dry ground: therefore, this is thy gift; apply unto it and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.

7:3 O remember, these words and keep my commandments. Remember this is your gift. Now this is not all, for you have another gift, which is the gift of working with the rod: behold it has told you things: behold there is no other power save God, that can cause this rod of nature, to work in your hands, for it is the work of God; and therefore whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, that you shall know.

7:4 Remember that without faith you can do nothing. Trifle not with these things. Do not ask for that which you ought not. Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate all those ancient records, which have been hid up, which are sacred, and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

7:5 Behold it is I that have spoken it, I am the same which spake unto you from the beginning:—Amen.
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Doctrine and Covenants Section 8

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829. HC 1:36-37. In the course of the translation of the Book of Mormon, Oliver, who continued to serve as scribe, writing at the Prophet’s dictation, desired to be endowed with the gift of translation. The Lord responded to his supplication by granting this revelation.

8:1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.

8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

8:3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

8:4 Therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.

8:5 Oh, remember these words, and keep my commandments. Remember, this is your gift.

8:6 Now this is not all thy gift; for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron; behold, it has told you many things;

8:7 Behold, there is no other power, save the power of God, that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you.

8:8 Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God; and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God.

8:9 And, therefore, whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, and you shall have knowledge concerning it.

8:10 Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith. Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not.

8:11 Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred; and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

8:12 Behold, it is I that have spoken it; and I am the same that spake unto you from the beginning. Amen.
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RLDS Version -

D&C SECTION 8 (Also Book of Commandments Chapter VII 1-7)

Revelation given through Joseph Smith, Jr., to Oliver Cowdery, April 1829, at Harmony, Pennsylvania. It was occasioned by Oliver’s questions and concerns as he entered into more intimate association with Joseph during this first month of their acquaintance.

[Sec 8:1a] Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer,

[Sec 8:1b] even so sure shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which have been spoken, by the manifestation of my Spirit;

[Sec 8:1c] yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you, and which shall dwell in your heart.

[Sec 8:2a] Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the Spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground;

[Sec 8:2b] therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you, and bring your soul to destruction.

[Sec 8:3a] Oh, remember these words, and keep my commandments! Remember this is your gift.

[Sec 8:3b] Now this is not all your gift, for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron; behold, it has told you many things; behold, there is no other power save the power of God that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you;

[Sec 8:3c] therefore doubt not, for it is the gift of God, and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God.

[Sec 8:3d] And, therefore, whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, and you shall have knowledge concerning it; remember, that without faith you can do nothing.

[Sec 8:3e] Therefore, ask in faith.

[Sec 8:3f] Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not; ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred, and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

[Sec 8:3g] Behold, it is I that have spoken it; and I am the same who spake unto you from the beginning. Amen.

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