Posted on 01/04/2009 8:07:31 PM PST by Stourme
THE CATHOLIC BIBLE
Holding the "Douay" Roman Catholic Version of the Bible aloft in my hand, I ask, "Do YOU accept THIS Bible as the Word of God?" For reasons best known to themselves, the Catholic Truth Society have published their Version of the Bible in a very short, stumpy form. This Version is a very odd proportion of the numerous Versions in the market today. The Christian questioner is taken aback. "What Bible is that?" he asks. "Why, I thought you said that there was only ONE Bible!" I remind him. "Y-e-s," he murmurs hesitantly, "but what Version is that?" "Why, would that make any difference?" I enquire. Of course it does, and the professional preacher knows that it does. He is only bluffing with his "ONE Bible" claim.
The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest Version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "apocrypha" i.e. of DOUBTFUL AUTHORITY. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":
". . . If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
But who cares! They do not really believe! The Protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their Book of God! The outcasts are:
The Book of Judith
The Book of Tobias
The Book of Baruch
The Buck of Esther, etc.
* This disparaging title is given by the orthodox to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and a thousand other sects and denominations with whom they do not see eye to eye.
I would, but you won’t find the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Science can neither prove nor disprove scripture, not the Bible nor the Book of Mormon. Science can track some things but it can’t assure that something didn’t happen. However, you pose a non-existent dichotomy. To have faith in the Book of Mormon is to have faith in Christ. Read it and see for yourself. It is further testimony of Christ’s teachings to the lost sheep about which He spoke to His apostles in John 10:16. It is a fulfillment of Ezekiel’s vision in Ezekiel 37:15-19 to have two records form one testimony of Christ. The church itself is a fulfillment of Amos 3:7. I have studied the Bible and taught it for several years, especially the Old Testament. I have no qualms about joining the Book of Mormon as another testament of Christ.
All empirical evidence points to its fraudulent origins. Joseph Smith was a fraud too. But I won't bother going into the details on this thread. Suffice it to say that I am as convinced that the Book of Mormon is a fraud as you are convinced that it is the truth.
But I have placed my faith and trust solely in Jesus Christ, and on that measure, I believe that I am saved.
It is good to know that you would still have "faith in Christ" if the Book of Mormon were proven (to you) to be a fraud.
Do you believe that your salvation is in any way contingent upon accepting the truth of the Book of Mormon or the Prophetic calling of Joseph Smith?
If you only believed in the Christ revealed in the New Testament and your faith was not tied to any church or any other person or any modern scriptures, but only in the Lord Jesus Christ, do you believe that you would be saved?
There is a difference between salvation and exaltation. Salvation from the grave was a free gift of the Savior to all. Had His sacrifice not happened on the cross and in the Garden of Gethsemane, none of us would ever had left the grave after we died. We will all leave the grave, thanks to Him. But what happens after we leave the grave is due in part to our works, overlaid with a huge measure of mercy and grace. There is not just one level of heaven but many. Christ said His Father’s house has many mansions. The “mansion” to which we go will depend on the type of person we became here on earth. We will, to put it in simple terms, go to a place where the people are just like us. If we are good, then our place/mansion will be good. If we are evil, then it will be evil.
My salvation is assured. My exaltation depends on my seeking out the truth and living in accordance with that truth. Our faith has a different understanding of Hell. It is a sparsely-populated place without light of any kind and is also known as Outer Darkness but only those who absolutely know the Savior as in face to face revelation and visitation and then renounce Him will go to Outer Darkness. All others will have different degrees of exaltation, although as I said, you and your similar neighbors will determine whether it is a heavenly or hellish place to dwell forever.
I respect your opinion and I wouldn’t try to convince you otherwise. I know you are concerned for my salvation. I just know what I know beyond a shadow of a doubt and I will trust to the Savior for my salvation and exaltation. He is my Redeemer and my Savior, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Way, the Light, the Life, and the Bread and Water of Eternal Life. And I came to know and appreciate it so much more through the Book of Mormon. I don’t expect you to understand that and I do appreciate your sincerity and zeal for the truth. God bless.
What exactly do you mean by "exaltation"?
Jesus said the following:
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 14:11 KJV)
Joseph Smith was quoted as saying the following:
"A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409).
Now based on that statement is Joseph Smith worthy of exaltation or abasement?
By exaltation do you mean that you will someday be found worthy to become a god, like God the Father? Is it your desire to become a god and rule as God over your own planet and to bear spirit children in a world such as this? Is that what you mean by exaltation?
God calls us His children, not his pets. Children carry the same eternal “genetic makeup” as their fathers with the same potentials. All through His earthly ministry the Savior called upon Him followers to strive to become like Him. God doesn’t put us through the tests of mortal life just to assign us to sing in the heaven choir for the rest of eternity. He has us experience mortal life in order to learn and grow in knowledge and experience. For what? To qualify us for more responsibility in the hereafter as part of his creations. A prince may grow to become a king but he never supplants his father unless his father dies, and God does not die. Therefore, any responsibility or stewardship assigned to those faithful to the Lord in this life will always be under the aegis of the Lord who is eternal and unending. Mormons believe that the Lord is engaged in eternal creation and dominion and that He will share some of the responsibilities with us if we prove faithful. That doesn’t mean we believe we will ever be the same as God or in competition with Him, just that we will share in eternal creation and love for our creations. That makes us, in some definitions, gods (little g). (Psalms 82:1.
You criticize Joseph Smith for being what sounds like boasting. I think he was stating that his followers were of a better quality than were the disciples of Christ who deserted Him when the going got tough. Joseph Smith was a human being, as human as any of us. He was not a redeemer or savior, he was just a kid who wanted to know what church to join and ended up with an answer he never in his life expected. He acted on it and the rest is, as they say, history. There is a lot of history on Joseph Smith and not all of it is accurate. He never pretended to be perfect and he made his share of mistakes in his lifetime but he was, nevertheless, an instrument of God during his short life, for that reason alone he deserves exaltation. There has only been one perfect being upon this planet and everyone else has provided plenty of fodder for criticism, or would have had the state of communication been as it is now and had the other church founders been so recently born.
You have been respectful in much of what you have written but now I think you are grasping at straws to debase my church. I cannot refute every derogatory thing written about my church and Joseph Smith. No one can refute everything bad about anyone’s church. If you are sincerely interested in knowing the church, then just get a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it start to finish in the privacy of your own home and decide just what in there is so “satanic” that minions fight against it. If you then have further questions, there are plenty of sites to find the answers far better than I can phrase them. If you have already made up your mind, then we are both wasting our time.
I have appreciated our conversation but I don’t think it is going anywhere. Neither of us appears ready to change our minds so I think we should just agree to disagree and let the chips fall where they may. If you wish, you can come laugh at me in hell if it proves you are right.
I thought we were doing a good job of expressing our points of agreement and disagreement.
Neither of us appears ready to change our minds so I think we should just agree to disagree and let the chips fall where they may.
It is not my job to change your mind. I am only here to plant seeds and if they fall on fertile ground, then they will grow. It is the Holy Spirit that prepares the ground.
If you wish, you can come laugh at me in hell if it proves you are right.
Now is that a nice way to end our conversation? I hope that your faith in Christ is sufficient to save you from hell. I do not believe your faith in a book (the BOM) or a man (Joseph Smith) will put you one inch further into heaven than the most simple faith in Christ. I pray that your faith in Christ is sufficient and that he will lead you into all truth.
May God richly bless you and thank you for the interesting and honest replies.
Marlowe
Sorry, but science CAN disprove things that certain writings claim to be true.
According to CURRENT lds teaching; the Living Prophet® has more clout than old writings.
The BIBLE and the BoM have been superceded by later claims of the Prophets®.
I would suggest instead ...
If you are sincerely interested in knowing the church, then just get a copy of the Pearl of Great Price, JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION of the King James Version of the Holy Bible, Doctrines & Covenants and read them start to finish anywhere you wish; and THEN decide whether ANY of the secr.. SACRED Temple Rites® are to be found there.
...it is familiar to all of us. Elder McConkie said, in general conference more than thirty-three years ago:
“The Prophet’s expression that ‘the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion’ means precisely what it says. The keystone is the central stone in the top of the arch. If that stone is removed, then the arch crumbles, which, in effect, means that Mormonism so-called—which actually is the gospel of Christ, restored anew in this day—stands or falls with the truth or the falsity of the Book of Mormon. . .
FWIW:
(John 10:14 KJV) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
(John 10:26 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(John 10:27 KJV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(John 21:16 KJV) He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
(John 21:17 KJV) He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
.
FWIW, not everyone is one of Christ's sheep:
(Matthew 7:15 KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Matthew 10:16 KJV) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
(Luke 10:3 KJV) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
(Acts 20:29 KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
.
Carry on.
So Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and William Brennan are all going to be exalted in heaven?
BTTT
Exalted is a relative word and in comparison to what we have here as opposed to what is available in heaven. They will go to a place where they will dwell forever with people like themselves. If you have read C.S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce”, I imagine (and I emphasize the word imagine) it might be something like that. They will be exalted above death and deterioration, but they will not know joy, progression, the presence of their Father in Heaven (and even of His influence which maintains what thin veneer of civility we humans have). It is not a place where I would want to dwell. The burning talked about in the scriptures is, we believe, one of mental torment and it will be far more miserable for them than some burning pit with demons poking them. They will see the joy of the righteous and be forever barred from enjoying it themselves because of their deeds on earth.
Now, having said that, I don’t know the role of repentance and judgment and I don’t presume to know exactly where people will end up. We believe we must work out our salvation day to day, enduring to the end, slowly and with the Lord’s help, turning into people who will be able to live in a heavenly environment. We believe that the Savior’s atonement made it possible to return to the Father but that we must affirmatively take advantage of that atonement by repentance every day of our lives.
I try to envision things in concrete ways and the likeliest analogy I can imagine when it comes to the division of people into different “mansions” in heaven is somewhat like wanting to visit Jupiter. We might think it grand to explore Jupiter but the laws of gravity apply and were we to go there as we are, we would be pinned to the ground by its immense gravity. We simply are not built to withstand the forces of Jupiter, no matter how much we want to be there. Hence, it is mercy that we don’t go there. I envision Heaven somewhat of the same. You must be the type of person who can withstand the presence of the Lord or else being there would be hardly less than a prison and you would voluntarily want to go elsewhere. I imagine Heaven a place of purity, of light unbounded, of transparency, and of power. Those who don’t want to live in that environment would probably choose of their own accord to go away. Whether that choice will be given them is not important. They simply would be miserable even if they were allowed to enter in.
I don’t know if I am satisfying you but I am thankful for your respectful questions. You have a lot of class and exemplify a true Christian.
I most certainly did answer your question by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2:8-10 in context.
I don't think "fun" is the right word.
I spent more than an hour composing that post, making sure I had the right scripture and context set correctly, revising and editing my own post for clarity so that there was no confusion as to where I stood.
I clicked the "post" button and left the house for my sister in law's funeral.
Today I see that the post was not only not comprehended, it obviously wasn't even read.
I shall debate myself for 3 ... 2 ... 1 more seconds before I conclude that continuing to post on this topic just isn't worth it if the words I post aren't going to be read by the person they're directed towards. Clearly there is no intent to have an honest discussion and it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere.
Would you be so kind as to point me to the scripture that backs up the above?
I have never read nor found in the Bible (NIV, KJV for example) that there are different "levels" of Heaven, nor many "mansions."
In John 13 to 17 Jesus says: "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my father's house are many rooms; if it were not so I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." (Jn.14:1-4 NIV)
If we are truly to be where Jesus is in Heaven, then how would we be so if we are on different "levels?" That simply fails the test of logic and what Jesus actually said.
You’re quoting Paul, not Jesus.
I’ll try but I suspect it won’t satisfy you. In John 14:2, KJV, it says mansions which apparently the NIV translates as rooms. See also 1 Cor. 15:40-41, 2 Cor. 12:2-4. These are oblique references and will not satisfy you, I know. Let me make it clear that I don’t think Heaven is bound by logic, else all of us would be forever left in the grave. That said, what defies logic is that there are only two places in which to spend eternity: burning in a fiery pit or hanging around with the choir. What explains the reference to mansions (or rooms) except a separation among people in Heaven. It’s not like we would require privacy up there. Writers have no problem thinking of different levels or cicles of Hell but for some reason they cannot envision different levels of Heaven. Yet why would someone like Mother Teresa merit only the same reward as someone who did nothing except manage to avoid Hell? I know that goes against the grace and works debate (and I won’t attempt to get into that) but why would the Lord put us through the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune here on earth merely to lump everyone into a vague heavenly national preserve for eternity. We believe we come here to learn and progress and to then participate with the Lord in His creations as He deems us ready to do so. That means the distinctions in Heaven remain. I know that is a radical concept and I don’t expect you to believe it based on the obscure references in the Bible.
I appreciate your questions and wish I could answer it better. I am not a professional theologian nor do I have any kind of divinity degree by which to convince you. I don’t even know how to post references. And my answer is necessarily limited to our common reference, which is the Bible. Because our church is graced by continuing revelation and more ancient and modern records, I have a different picture and understanding of heaven given through those Biblical references which you would not accept.
Neither logic nor science can explain God. You either have to puzzle it out with personal revelation from the Holy Ghost or you have to believe that religion is absolutely crazy. I know that sounds like a cop out and I don’t mean it way. To discuss it fully would require your being open to new revelations and most Christians I know believe God shut His mouth sometime around 100 AD and has not spoken since. Therefore, none of the information He has given since that time would hold the slightest water with you.
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