Cool! I hope you hear from you later.
Until then, just for entertainment...here's a banana riding a lama. :D
Posted on 01/04/2009 8:07:31 PM PST by Stourme
THE CATHOLIC BIBLE
Holding the "Douay" Roman Catholic Version of the Bible aloft in my hand, I ask, "Do YOU accept THIS Bible as the Word of God?" For reasons best known to themselves, the Catholic Truth Society have published their Version of the Bible in a very short, stumpy form. This Version is a very odd proportion of the numerous Versions in the market today. The Christian questioner is taken aback. "What Bible is that?" he asks. "Why, I thought you said that there was only ONE Bible!" I remind him. "Y-e-s," he murmurs hesitantly, "but what Version is that?" "Why, would that make any difference?" I enquire. Of course it does, and the professional preacher knows that it does. He is only bluffing with his "ONE Bible" claim.
The Roman Catholic Bible was published at Rheims in 1582, from Jerome's Latin Vulgate and reproduced at Douay in 1609. As such the RCV (Roman Catholic Version) is the oldest Version that one can still buy today. Despite its antiquity, the whole of the Protestant world, including the "cults"* condemn the RCV because it contains seven extra "books" which they contemptuously refer to as the "apocrypha" i.e. of DOUBTFUL AUTHORITY. Notwithstanding the dire warning contained in the Apocalypse, which is the last book in the RCV (renamed as "Revelation" by the Protestants), it is "revealed":
". . . If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book." (Revelation 22:18-19)
But who cares! They do not really believe! The Protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their Book of God! The outcasts are:
The Book of Judith
The Book of Tobias
The Book of Baruch
The Buck of Esther, etc.
* This disparaging title is given by the orthodox to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists and a thousand other sects and denominations with whom they do not see eye to eye.
But LDS detractors say that God doesn't change his mind. Guess that one is out too.
Jonah wasn't given an out (IE: if the city repents it won't be destroyed). He was just told to prophecy that Nineveh would be destroyed. It wasn't. By the same standard given to modern day prophets by detractors of the LDS Church, that is a failed prophecy.
Same with Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, and Egypt in chapter 29.
Same with Isaiah's prophecy of the Canaanite language in Egypt found in Isaiah 19. Never happened and the Canaanite language is now extinct.
The lands of Babylon are still inhabited today (unlike the prophecies of Isaiah). Dragons and Satyrs have not lived and danced in the palaces of Babylon (though that would be neat to see, I've never seen a dragon). The Nile has never dried up. Israel, Egypt, and Assyria never had an alliance and never will given that the Assyrian empire no longer exists. Men still live at Hazor and nary a dragon to be found. Egypt has never been uninhabited for fourty years. Israel has never been safe from attack.
Failed prophecies by true prophets found in the Bible. And that's not the lot of them either.
So are the prophets false? Or just the prophesies?
“Study to show thyself approved unto God . . . a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” . . . 2Tim 2:15
I haven't actually made a claim as to whether The Book of Enoch should be considered scripture or not as I have not read the entire thing. I only stated it is an interesting read (from what pieces I have read of it here and there online). The Book of Enoch is not considered canon by the LDS church. But for the sake of discussion I'll continue and clarify my own position.
Your post though tries to have it both ways. First you say Jude didn't quote Enoch directly. Then you allow that the prophecy could be true but the book is false. Which is it? Is Enoch "God Breathed" (to borrow a Protestant term) or not? And if only parts of it are "God breathed", who gets to decide which parts? or how much of a book has to be God breathed to get it canonized. Wouldn't even some "God breathing" elevate it to scripture status?
Lets take the actual quotes first.
Jude 14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Enoch 1:9 - And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
It appear to me that Jude quoted Enoch pretty accurately, especially considering our current translation of Enoch is from Ethiopic. (if we use the Bible as a comparison the quotation is as close as many of the NT quotations of OT sources) IOW, The common original source document which Jude was quoting (which unfortunately we don't have for Enoch, or for the book of Jude for that matter) is supported by the similarity of the verses.
Justin Matryr, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian all thought it was scripture, as do some Catholics I assume. You (and many other Protestants I assume) apparently don't. I'd lean more towards the idea that the book of Enoch has true prophecy in it and proabably should be included in the Canon.
Of course we are still left with the question of who gets to decide what is Canon or not. For example Pope Benedict and other protestants might fault me for not considering the Song of Solomon scripture even though it is in my KJV.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
IMO, The books of the Bible are witnesses of the divinity of Christ but do not contain all the revelation that has been given by God about him. Somebody gave Enoch the prophecy. IOW, The book of Enoch appears to contain "God breathed" prophecy.
Rameumptom
You are factually incorrect in asserting there were no caveats given in Jonah’s addressing the Ninevites. THey were told that if they humbled themselves from the greatest to the lowest and sincerely repented that they might be spared.
I don’t know about you, but if a guy comes walking up from the seashore bleached by gastric juices, clothes in tatters, smelling like whale barf...pointing his finger and telling me “Repennnnnnnnnnt...!”
I’d repent in a hurry - as the people of Nineveh did. That was the most successful revival preached in the entire Old Testament!
It is also not correct to contend that my meaning was “No” prophecies” ever made by Smith came to pass
I argue “No prophecies of consequence...” and I stand one hundred percent by that.
“Prophecies” given concerning the growth of a church can serve (and have served) as imperatives for a church and its people to make certain they are fulfilled. Self-fulfilling prophecies that aggrandize the mormon church, or are highlighted in order to lend it undeserved credibility and status - simply are not prophecies, period. Prophecy in the Bible was always intended by the Holy Spirit to highlight the workings of G_d , to glorify his name. Predictions about the mormon church were not so intended, but were an outpouring of the egomania of Smith and his close associates
Even so, although the LDS organization has reached many nations and tongues, they have not reached “all” - and a great deal of what they have accomplished has been done “piggybacking” on real, proper Orthodox (protestant or catholic) Christianity and its name and fame.
They are doing that still today - offering copies of the KJV Bible, masquerading as being just like every other church (”We’re Christians too - we’re your neighbors...”), deceiving others and never telling the casual listener that the KJV they offer is the JST - Joseph Smith Translation (as if Smith had the ability, knowledge, or right to conduct a translation, or call himself a translator of anything whatsoever.)
Study the nature of what things constitute a prophecy or prediction of a future event, and you will find that narrows the field - regardles of whether Smith himself may have defined some of his own pronouncements as such, there is a certain lack of risk in some sorts of predictions.
It is one thing to look at Israel during Christ’s time and prophesy that Jerusalem would fall, and the Temple would be destroyed - even though they were under the thumb of Rome - and quite another to “predict” the same fate 45 years later when conditions were markedly different (Jerusalem fell in 79 AD to Titus).
Similarly, when there was so much religious freedom and general latitude on the American frontier -it was not a stretch to expect the church might make it beyond the Rocky Mountains.
Do you know that the Babylonian plundering of Tyre never happened?
Similarly, do you know of what Christ was speaking when He said “This generation shall not pass...”? Because I am absolutely certain of this - the Son of G_d had something specific in mind, and as sure as he is seated at the right hand of the Father, it will come to pass precisely as He spoke it.
It is not for you or I to question Christ in such manner - but for Him to question us.
A.A.C.
I’ll try to respond later . . . I’m off to Supper with my “Bible Study Group” . . . then on to, “What Else??? “. . . “Bible Study” of course . . . ;-)
Until then, just for entertainment...here's a banana riding a lama. :D
I have talked with many unchurched people who have recently viewed that particular tv commercial and what I am reporting to you basically amounts to a condensed version of their collective responses.
Not that they do not believe mormons are their neighbors, but rather they see the intent of those spots as being to paint the LDS church as being just like any other church in the community .
Not saying that directly does not negate the impression left with unchurched people who may have little or no frame of reference to know the differences. I think those kinds of people are the highly desireable target audience for the ad spots. Especially the one-in-however-many it is who may be thinking seriously about G_d and developing a spiritual life for themselves.
We agree that the doctrinal differences are marked and profound - but you will not notice any mainstream orthodox Christian church running an ad that makes them seem on first blush to the uninitiated to be indistinguishable from the mormon church...
And as far as calling mormons ‘christian’ - if you choose to call yourselves that, it is between you and the Lord.
As for me and the majority of the Orthodox Christian world, we will not, nor will most of us accept your practices as such. Although Protestants and Catholics disagree on some issues of interpretation and practice, and some denominations have their sticking points with one another- in principle, they accept the same theological basics of the faith to be true. They would not (as do the mormons) eschew the Nicene Creed, or Apostle’s Creed...and at the heart of the matter, a majority of Protestants I know consider Catholics to be Christians ( a fringe few think of them as nothing but “Mary worshippers”, or in toto, “the whore of Babylon”, but these folks are on the margins where they belong.) and Catholics I know pretty uniformly refer to Protestants as “our Protestant brothers and sisters in the Lord...” or “Protestant fellow believers”.
Those in either camp who consider Mormons “fellow Christians” are a tiny minority; Catholics do not consider any mormon (or JW) baptisms valid, I’m told - although they do accept the previous baptisms of any other protestant Christian tradition.
You do not have to interpret things as I do - indeed - but doing so makes you definitively NOT a Christian. Christ came into the world to be the perfect sacrifice one time for all sinners and all sin.
By Mormon standards, he need not have come at all, because the mormon church takes the doctrinally indefensible POV that there is no such thing as “original sin”
Your church and its elders regard what happened in the Garden of Eden as “The Wise choice”, and you’ll pardon me for thinking that Eve made anything BUT a wise choice.
It was Sin, plain and simple - for which Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, and for which all mankind has suffered consequences ever since.
To say otherwise is an outright LIE of the Devil, Lucifer (who, by the way was a sheltering seraph - an angel of sorts...NOT the brother of Jesus Christ, as the LDS church also wrongly teaches).
THe LDS church also teaches that we can ourselves become gods, and be eternally married and populate our own planet - kind of like the planet Kolob where we all originated - according to J Smith and his wild hallucinations, anyway.
I do not think anyone will ever “...Hie thee to the planet Kolob in the twinkling of an eye...” as the old hymnbook has it - but those who want may keep on hoping against reasonable hope and faith that is not blind.
I cannot recall whether it is Cantonese or Mandarin, but in one or the other of the two major Chinese dialects, “mormon” means literally ‘gates of hell’.
Unsurprisingly the church had huge problems making inroads until they effectively repackaged themselves as THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, Latter Day SAINTS. I don’t know how successful their proselytizing of Chinese folk is these days, I just know it used to really suck.
Of course in fairness the Chinese have long been rather xenophobic, but that did not prevent the arising of such believing men as Watchman Nee and his brother.
A.A.C.
Sure it does. (It just reduces smith's words to mere footnote status).
Imagine that. Smith went on and on in the 1830s -- to the point of many references making it into LDS "Scripture" Doctrine & Covenants -- about "finishing the 'translation'" (of the King James Bible). He made it a major point of what the Mormon god was calling him to do.
Now, almost 180 years later, his spiritual descendants don't offer commercials for a free JST. Nope. It's a free KJV, with Smith's supposed "all-important" "translation" being reduced to mere footnote status.
(For those of you who don't know, the "JST" isn't even a "T" -- 'cause why do you need to "translate" English into English? You don't...and gullible Mormons still don't "get it" And Smith's recasting of Biblical words don't really change any major Biblical doctrine)
Bzzzzt so sorry.
No copy of the KJV Bible that is in my home has the JST in it. All of my copies of the KJV, except the large leather bound heirloom display KJV I have were printed by the LDS Church. No copy of the KJV I have handed out in conjunction with the BoM has contained the JST.
Love it when people claim they deceive, when they themselves in the same sentence do the same.
Yes.
***It’s a free KJV, with Smith’s supposed “all-important” “translation” being reduced to mere footnote status.***
Several years ago I requested their “free” KJV. I received a free KJV gift quality version printed for the Mormons by a major bible printing company in Nashville, TN.
The only difference was on the inside fly leaf was a statement that this was a gift from the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. No other changes were anywhere.
Two weeks later I got a call asking me if I liked it and would I be interested in a free BOM and a visit. I asked a few questions about Galatians chapter 1 and found the caller to be TOTALLY IGNORANT of the bible. they didn’t even know what Galatians was!
Today they might offer a different version but they did not then.
Now, why would a religious organization send a free book that they themselves do not consider to be “properly translated”.
I don’t think the Gideons or any trinitarian church would send free “JW” bibles to anyone, only properly translated bibles are given out so as not to lead people astray.
If Joseph Smith is a false prophet and the Book of Mormon is a fraud, can a person still be saved if he follows the teachings of a false prophet?
John A. Tvedtnes, "Ancient Texts in Support of the Book of Mormon," footnote #8: Hebrew is part of the Canaanite language family, usually called Northwest Semitic. This includes later forms of the Canaanite language, called Phoenician and Punic. (Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, http://ispart.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=8&chapid=64)
So even apart from the meaning of Isaiah 19, even BYU authors say that Hebrew is technically a Canaanite language. (Are you taking issue with BYU authors now?)
Dragons and Satyrs have not lived and danced in the palaces of Babylon (though that would be neat to see, I've never seen a dragon...and "nary a dinosaur" has been found alive or carcassed, either")
Satyrs: "In two cases, however, the King James Version renders sa‘ir as “satyr” (Isaiah 13:21 and 34:14). But the specific context of both passages makes it quite clear that the term is being used to refer to the wild goats that frequently inhabited the ruins of both ancient Babylon and Edom. (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/165)
So what? You're tellin' us you've done night-and-day watchman duty on all the Babylonian palances for umpteem centuries and you've never seen any goats there? As for dragons, well I've never a dinosaur, either -- and that also would be neat to see...but just because I've haven't given eyewitness testimony about dinosaurs doesn't rule their existence out of order.
Same with Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, and Egypt in chapter 29.
Ezekiel said a fair amount about Tyre in Eze. 26:
What is most notable about Ezekiel’s prophecy is the accuracy of its fulfillment. Although secular records are not sufficiently complete to provide an independent confirmation of every detail, chapter 26 makes at least seven definite predictions that can be tested against historical data (see table below).
[First number listed is PREDICTION] [Second number listed is FULFILLMENT] 1. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon shall destroy the mainland (“field” KJV) portion of Tyre (Ezekiel 26:7-8). 1. Nebuchadnezzar II laid siege to Tyre for thirteen years beginning in 585-586 B.C. During this time, the inhabitants transferred most of their valuables to the island. The king seized Tyre’s mainland territories but returned to Babylon, finding himself unable to subdue the island fortress militarily (cf. 29:18). Tyre, weakened by the conflict, soon recognized Babylonian authority, which effectively ended the city’s autonomy and any aspirations for a greater Phoenicia. 2. Other nations are to participate in the fulfillment of the prophecy (vs. 3). 2. Following the Babylonian period, Tyre remained in subjection to Persia from 538-332 B.C. Alexander the Great besieged and captured the port in 332 B.C., and Ptolemies, Seleucids, Romans, and Muslim Arabs all had their turn at rule. After passing briefly into the hands of the Crusaders, the city was destroyed completely by the Mamluks (former Muslim soldier-slaves) in A.D. 1291. 3. The city is to be flattened, like the top of a rock (vss. 4,14). 3. Like Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander was stymied by Tyre’s natural moat. The brilliant Macedonian was not so quick to give up, however. He used the building materials of the mainland city, and any other rocks and soil in the immediate vicinity, to build a causeway to the island. His complete conquest of Tyre took only seven months. 4. It is to become a place for the spreading of nets (vss. 5,14). 4. The waters around Tyre were renowned in ancient times for their fishing (Liverani, 1988, 5:932). This was all the fame the city could claim after its complete decimation by Alexander. 5. Its stones and timbers are to be laid in the sea (vs. 12). 5. As noted in item 3 above, the building of the causeway came from the remains of the mainland city. Sands carried by currents have built up a spit or tombolo around the causeway, forming a permanent connection between the island and the mainland. 6. Other cities are to fear greatly at the fall of Tyre (vss. 15-18). 6. Many fortified cities in the region capitulated to Alexander after they saw the genius and relative ease with which he captured Tyre. 7. The city will not be inhabited or rebuilt (vss. 20-21). 7. Alexander sold almost all of Tyre’s inhabitants into slavery, and the city forever lost its importance on the world stage. Any vestiges of strength and power disappeared with the destruction of the Crusader fortress. Soûr, as it is known by Arabs today, is a small town in southern Lebanon with a population of about 14,000 (1990 estimate; refugees have inflated that number significantly in the last several years). http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/254
***Footnotes and references are just that....the text of the Bible is still the same old KJV 1611 version. ***
Cambridge or Oxford version of the KJV. There IS a difference. Or didn’t you know that.
Yea the coke logo means "bite the wax tadpole". Doesn't mean you bite it, it's made of wax, nor is there tadpoles in it.
But that's besides the point.
This are the Chinese characters for "Mormon" 
the first two characters having no real meaning other then allowing translation between English and Chinese. They sound similar "mo men". The third character meaning church, it is used by the Catholics, Presbyterians, Jewish, Islam, and Tao in the same context.
Again back to the first character:
In order to get Mormon meaning gates of hell you have to replace the first character (which spoken sounds the same) with 
. It sounds the same but means "devil". A little shell game going on there. Replace the real character with one that sounds the same but is nefarious.
In Chinese there are thirty four different characters that are pronounced mo. Pick any and spoken sounds the same, but written mean entirely different things, and thus the problem with Chinese.
If you take 
that has the same first character, and replace the first character with the one from above meaning devil, it means "Western Devil". The proper characters are the name of Moses. Though spoken sounds the same.
The proper name for the LDS Church in chinese is 
. Translated means "Jesus Christ Last-days Saint Church" pronounced Yesu Jidu Moshi Shengtu Jiaohui.
"Mormon" does not mean "gates of hell" in Chinese, Cantonese, nor Mandarin. That is a fallacy made up by anti-mormons.
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