I haven't actually made a claim as to whether The Book of Enoch should be considered scripture or not as I have not read the entire thing. I only stated it is an interesting read (from what pieces I have read of it here and there online). The Book of Enoch is not considered canon by the LDS church. But for the sake of discussion I'll continue and clarify my own position.
Your post though tries to have it both ways. First you say Jude didn't quote Enoch directly. Then you allow that the prophecy could be true but the book is false. Which is it? Is Enoch "God Breathed" (to borrow a Protestant term) or not? And if only parts of it are "God breathed", who gets to decide which parts? or how much of a book has to be God breathed to get it canonized. Wouldn't even some "God breathing" elevate it to scripture status?
Lets take the actual quotes first.
Jude 14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Enoch 1:9 - And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
It appear to me that Jude quoted Enoch pretty accurately, especially considering our current translation of Enoch is from Ethiopic. (if we use the Bible as a comparison the quotation is as close as many of the NT quotations of OT sources) IOW, The common original source document which Jude was quoting (which unfortunately we don't have for Enoch, or for the book of Jude for that matter) is supported by the similarity of the verses.
Justin Matryr, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian all thought it was scripture, as do some Catholics I assume. You (and many other Protestants I assume) apparently don't. I'd lean more towards the idea that the book of Enoch has true prophecy in it and proabably should be included in the Canon.
Of course we are still left with the question of who gets to decide what is Canon or not. For example Pope Benedict and other protestants might fault me for not considering the Song of Solomon scripture even though it is in my KJV.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
IMO, The books of the Bible are witnesses of the divinity of Christ but do not contain all the revelation that has been given by God about him. Somebody gave Enoch the prophecy. IOW, The book of Enoch appears to contain "God breathed" prophecy.
Rameumptom
Rampy,
>>>Your post though tries to have it both ways. First you say Jude didn’t quote Enoch directly. Then you allow that the prophecy could be true but the book is false. Which is it?
No, I don’t have it both ways. I presented the possibilities
that exist as a result of Jude paraphrasing the material
from Enoch. Something can be true and be quoted. Or something
can serve as a point of commonality, like Paul’s use of
the poet below:
“Acts 17: 22: “Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’”
Now, Rampy, Paul’s use of the quote, ‘For we are also His
offspring’, does not mean that everything that poet wrote
is inspired and should be in the canon.
>>>Is Enoch “God Breathed” (to borrow a Protestant term)
Actually, it is a CHRISTIAN term, since it is in the
scripture...
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,” II Tim 3:16 (it literally says this in Greek).
This passage is also a strong reason why I rebuke the
falsehood of mormonism on FR. GOD says scripture is useful
to teach and rebuke.
>>>And if only parts of it are “God breathed”, who gets to decide which parts?
I made no claim that any portion of Enoch is God-breathed.
“Justin Matryr, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian all thought it was scripture, as do some Catholics I assume. “
That is interesting, but unimportant, since God did not use
them to reveal the canon of scripture. Mormonism, in an
attempt to find some legitimacy somewhere for its positions
of heresy, often trots out quotes from the Early Church
fathers. Same thing applies. I recommend you get a good
volume on the history of theology. You would like it and
it would inform your thought process about the development
of Christian doctrine.
>>>IMO, The books of the Bible are witnesses of the divinity of Christ but do not contain all the revelation that has been given by God about him.
That is so wrong on several levels. I am not surprised that
you write you think this - given that it opens the door to
justifying the mormonite use of non-biblical writings in
order to legitimize itself.
“IOW, The book of Enoch appears to contain “God breathed” prophecy.”
Something can appear to be a horse and still be a pony.
best,
ampu