Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?

MRM ^ | Bill McKeever

[SkyPilot]

Post #70 by Colofornian addresses the "lynch mob" charge.

As to Smith, he was in no way in Jesus' league in terms of martyrdom.

Christ was led to the cross as a lamb to slaughter. _____________________________________________________________

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7

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Smith went out with his gun (who has a gun in prison?) blazing.

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In the History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 617-18, the following account is given concerning Smith's death: "...there was... a discharge of three or four firearms.... Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter… he discharged his six-shooter in the stairway… two or three barrels of which missed fire. "Joseph,… dropped his pistol on the floor, and sprang into the window..." John Taylor, who became the 3rd president of the church, testified that Joseph Smith "snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3)

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Moreover, Jesus was innocent of all the charges against Him.

Does not even LDS literature acknowledge that Smith ordered the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper that exposed his polygamy?

As far as the Inverted Pentagram, I am guessing you don't want to address it?

That's fine, and your prerogative.

[Old Mountain man]

There was no trial, therefore both Jesus and Joseph were not guilty.

Your mind reading tactic is failing you, as usual. I gave my reasons and I, unlike some people on this thread, am an honorable man and do not lie about things.

[SkyPilot]

There was no trial, therefore both Jesus and Joseph were not guilty.

Jesus was actually hauled before 7 trials.

The Seven Trials of Jesus

I would have preferred that Smith was tried as well.

OJ Simpson had a trial. Do you believe he was not guilty?

True guilt or innocence will be determined by God at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Given the historical and empirical evidence that I have seen, I can make the determination that Smith was guilty of many crimes.

Your mind reading tactic is failing you, as usual.

What "mind reading" are you referring to?

As far as the Inverted Pentagram, I am guessing you don't want to address it? That's fine, and your prerogative.

That sounded like a question and an acknowledgment to me. I'll let others chime in if they care to.

I, unlike some people on this thread, am an honorable man and do not lie about things.

If you want to accuse people on this thread of being "dishonorable", why don't you just come out and name them and give your reasons for such a charge? If you are referring to me specifically, I will answer it.

Moreover, I won't accuse you of lying "about things", but I do believe you have been deceived by the LDS teachings.

[Enosh]

Using Mormon logic presented on this thread, the lunatics who killed thousands on September 11, 2001 never stood trial and are thus not guilty.

[Osage Orange]

I gave my reasons and I, unlike some people on this thread, am an honorable man

ROFLOL!!

That's rich...!

Please don't hose me...OMM

[MHGinTN]

Just checking to see if they had closed this one down yet, too. BBgunner must be busy with somethin’ else.

[ejonesie22]

LOL...

I could make a few guesses...

[Rameumptom]

How about do a search on the first time a mob tarred and feathered Joseph Smith and killed his infant son. The mob included a baptist minister. Apparently back then "pro-life" meant only in utero as the babies were free game. Or do a search on Huan's Mill to find the affadavit which is part of the public record about the age of the youngest mormon child killed there. Or you could do a search about the Mormon women who were tied to church benches and raped by "so-called" Christians. Or the 500 people most of the age newborn-5 yrs. who died as a result of the forced winter exodus in Winter Quarters Cemetary. Or do a search on the Extermination order in missouri.

In Mountain Meadows they spared those under 6 years of age. I am not arguing moral equivalence with mountain meadows. it was murder and was wrong and the leader was shot by a firing squad and rightly so. IMO, even more of teh participants should have been executed as well. But it is interesting that the article does not address any of these relevant points in any depth.

What is really interesting is that there are so called conservatives who fail to understand the significance and want to justify or turn a blind eye to some of the worst constitutional violations againt life liberty, property and religion that occured against Mormon US citizens in our nations history.

Then there is the political factor which nobody seems to address. Joseph Smith was killed a month after he declared his presidential candidacy by the Democratic Governors. Gov. Ford refers to himself as Pontius Pilate over the matter in his history. It took a Republican Governor in 1976 to officially apologize for the Constitutionaal violations perpetuated against mormons and rescind the Extermination order which was still on the law books.

[Rameumptom]

The five pointed star is a Christian symbol that has been co-opted and imbued with satanic meaning in the 20th century. in the 1800's it was recognized by all Christians to mean the star of Bethlehem, (epiphany) or referring to the five suffering of Christ. In much the same way the rainbow or "sign of the Covenant between God and Noah" has been co-opted by the gay rights movement.

Any Christian in the 1800's who saw them on the Nauvoo temple, which was built then, would have understood the plain meaning and references to Christ. The advances of secularism and liberalism in the US today are so bad that we get FReepers who do not recognize their own Christian symbols and their meaning.

[Rameumptom]

....to be sure, the average Mormon has no idea that both sides had their share of abuses in human rights. To many Latter-day Saints, their forebears were simply innocent victims.

Mormons never claimed to be pacifists. And contrary to the authors agenda most modern Mormons are well aware of the facts of their own history. LDS missionary tour guides openly and plainly discuss Joseph Smith firing back at the mob who invaded the jail to kill him. They tell this to Mormons and non Mormons alike. Or if you want a more historical account with citations you can read Bushman's book "Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling" which openly discusses the issue that Mormons were not pacifists in the conflict with their neighbors.

What is interesting is that defense of one's person with guns is something that is supported and lauded by most conservatives and FReepers. Joseph Smith should be hailed as a hero for shooting back at the mob of over 200 men who came to murder him. The best accounts of the murder of Joseph come from the jailer who was responsible for the safety of his ward but sensibly stood aside when the mob of 200 threatened to kill him too. It is an objective account of the actions that day.

What is really interesting about this article is to see so called conservatives argue against their own values when it comes to guns and constitutional rights just to engage in a little Mormon bashing.

[colorcountry]

the first time a mob tarred and feathered Joseph Smith and killed his infant son.

Perhaps it is you who needs to search. Joseph was pulled from his home during the night in order that law abiding men teach him a lesson about deflowering a certain young woman (Nancy Marinda Johnson)while Smith was still married to Emma. I wish they would have gone the whole way and as the Apostle Paul says, "emasculated" him, for Smith was that vile in his conquest of young women all while being married to Emma. Some authors have stated the motivation is recorded by Symonds Ryder, a participant in the event, who felt Smith was plotting to take property from members of the community and a company of citizens violently warned Smith that they would not accept those actions.

As for the child. It was not Joseph Smith's child, but one of a set of twins left to Emma to care for after the death of their own mother. The twins had contacted measles, and one of them had already died from the effects. The child who died after the attack on Joseph died of a common childhood illness. Exposure of a few minutes due to an open door does not kill a child. Mormons try to blame the death of the child on the mob to inflame passions of sympathy for the con-man Smith.....it is simply more PR hype from them. I wish they could speak the truth. I doubt if many actually know it.

[colorcountry]

The record of the event by Joseph Smith. Even he doesn’t mention any “death” of a child caused by the mob, but I did learn that both twins were alive at the time of the tar and feathering.

http://www.mormonhistoricsitesregistry.org/USA/ohio/hiram/johnsonFarm/stories/johnsonFarm1.htm

[Elsie]

It is true that the Mormons were driven from several states before finally arriving in what is known today as the state of Utah, and this violence can never be condoned.

Oh bull!

A LOT of them stayed in Missouri and prospered!

That group now has title to properties that the bunch in SLC salivate to have!

[ejonesie22]

You know, I find all this fascinating, but I also tend to agree with the LDS folks, for totally different reasons though.

Smith and Company should have not been attacked like they were, the reactions diluted the position of those seeking justice. We see it all the time, even here on FR at times. Those in the right too impatient to act strategically and let the truth win out, falling to their emotions instead of calmly pushing through to the win. The “mobs” were right to react to the actions of these folks, but they should have let it run it's course. They ended up creating a martyr instead of an exposed con man and criminal. In their actions they gave these folks cover to continue, and gave them something to claim victim hood over.

The mormons violated almost ad nauseum what in modern terms is the concept of “don't start none, won't be none”. Time and history would have been better served if the reaction to what the mormons (mainly Smith and the boys) started was a little better played.

[Elsie]

"If the people [of Missouri] come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Quran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us – Joseph Smith or the Sword" – Joseph Smith, Jr. History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167.

My!!

This is very much TODAY's news!!

Old A-dim-nut-job of IRAN Saber Missile rattling about how he will ATTACK anyone who DARES to try and stop his plans!

[Elsie]

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[Elsie]

Lynch mob of protestants killed him, his brother, etc.

Mostly BAPTISTS; I'll bet!

[Elsie]

So Mormon leaders from the top down engaged in suppression of a free press?

FAIRLDS...

[Elsie]

I, for one, have no intention of doing enough research to do so. If you are so curious, look it up. The subject is lynch mobs of protestants.

#4

 

 

 

                       Standard LDS responses to data put to them:

 

Shorthand	Reference:
1. How you interpret it is wrong...	(Need a source)
2. You are too ignorant to really understand it because you are not a member....	(Need a source)
3. You're not qualified to judge because you're no LONGER a member...	(Need a source)
4. You are just a bigot for bringing the whole ugly truth to light ...	(Need a source)
5. So’s yer Mama!	(Need a source)
6. Laugh it all off and post some silly image.	(Need a source)
7. Jump down the rabbit hole; Alice!	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=683#683
8. Bait & Switch	(Need a source)
9. The OTHER 'half' of the truth is what we are avoiding.	(Need a source)
10. "I Know It When I See It"	(Need a source)
11. Hand waving...	(Need a source)
12. YOU play defense for a while.	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=944#944
13. HEE Hee hee... let's get the Calvinists and the Arminians fighting!	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1994515/posts?page=15#15
14. GREAT FUN! Let's get the Catholics and the Protestants fighting!	(Need a source)
15. Huh? Did you say something?	(Need a source)
16. If I repeat this enough times some folks will be fooled into thinking it's true.	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1997522/posts?page=2252#2252
17. Playing dumb.	(Need a source)
18. Refusing to answer because your ATTITUDE offends them.	(Need a source)
19. (Let's see if they'll fall for the 'Defend a freak' ploy.)	(Need a source)
20. And the MOST used...  IGNORE what they posted and answer the question that SHOULD have been asked.	http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
21. Threatening other FReepers with legal action because they annoy you with facts. (E-Danite-ism)	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2008967/posts?page=335#335

 

 

 

 

 

" The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success

unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -

- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

[Elsie]

Any Christian in the 1800's who saw them on the Nauvoo temple, which was built then, would have understood the plain meaning and references to Christ.

I guess we'll now be shown pictures of STARS on Christian churches; right?