Where Do the Dinosaurs Fit? [Open]

"I don't believe in the Bible because dinosaurs lived a long time before man ever did."

Have you ever heard a statement like that? I certainly have—many times. In fact, this was one of the principal reasons Charles Darwin, the father of the theory of evolution, eventually rejected the Bible. Many have followed suit.

Most people believe you can't reconcile dinosaurs and the Bible—but they are wrong. This erroneous idea is based on the supposition that either you have to believe in the young-earth theory of a 6,000-year-old earth and dinosaurs living with Adam, or you can't believe in the creation week account of Genesis 1.

Yet many would be surprised to find that several centuries ago scientists did believe in dinosaurs, an ancient earth and in creation week.

In fact, many of the first geologists who established the basic geologic column were believers in both the Bible and an ancient earth. British physicist Alan Hayward wrote about these premier geologists: "Among them were William Buckland and Adam Sedgwick. Buckland held the chair of geology at Oxford [University in England] in the early-nineteenth century, while Sedgwick was his counterpart at Cambridge. Both were leading churchmen, and both preached the plenary inspiration of Scripture and argued in favor of special creation ...

"Buckland maintained close links with Sedgwick and the famous French geologist, Baron Cuvier ... They did much to persuade the early nineteenth-century church that the earth was extremely old and that such views could be harmonized with the teaching of Genesis" (Creation and Evolution, 1985, pp. 72-73).

It is interesting to note that two Bible experts in the 1970s combined their skills to publish The Reese Chronological Bible, which supports an ancient earth and a creation week that actually involved a re-creation of a devastated earth.

Edward Reese was a professor of Bible, history and missions at Crown College in Powell, Tennessee, and spent 20 years putting biblical events in chronological order. Frank Klassen was an architect and engineer who spent 10 years writing The Chronology of the Bible. They both agreed regarding the account in Genesis that important biblical events occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

In fact, they felt the first verses of the Bible chronologically would be John 1:1-2: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

This is the same way 20th-century Church of God leader Herbert W. Armstrong explained the real beginning of the biblical account. Before space, matter and energy were created, there existed the Word (who would later become Jesus Christ, see John 1:14) and God (who later would be identified as God the Father).

Next in The Reese Chronological Bible comes a scripture that speaks of God existing before the creation of the earth, Psalm 90:2: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God."

Then comes the traditional first scripture of Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the -heavens and the earth." This marks the creation of the universe as we know it, including the galaxies, stars and planets.

But the most fascinating part of this Bible is what follows—not Genesis 1:2, but Isaiah 14:12-17, where Lucifer's fall from heaven is recorded. Next comes the parallel account of Lucifer's fall in Ezekiel 28:13-18.

Only then comes Genesis 1:2: "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (emphasis added). In the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible, a footnote to the word "was" in this verse says, "Or possibly became."

Apparently, something happened to cause the earth to become, as the Hebrew denotes, "chaotic and in confusion." Since God is not the author of confusion or chaos (Isaiah 45:18; 1 Corinthians 14:33), it makes sense that the earth became that way due to Lucifer's rebellion and subsequent expulsion to the earth.

As Jesus Christ remarked, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:18). Other scriptures reveal it was not only Satan, but also the fallen angels that were cast down with him. We read in 2 Peter 2:4 that "God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [from the Greek tartaroo, a place of confinement, in this case the earth] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment ..."

Revelation 12:3-4 describes the dragon (Satan, verse 9) as having drawn a third of the stars of heaven to be cast down to the earth—these "stars" being symbolic of angels (compare 1:20).

What we don't know is how long it took Lucifer to rebel—and how long this was before the six-day renewal of the earth culminating in the creation of Adam and Eve, as described in the rest of Genesis 1. Satan's rebellion apparently happened after the earth had passed through the dinosaur age. Then, geologists agree, something dramatic occurred between the age of reptiles and the age of mammals.

As the famous paleontologist G.G. Simpson once remarked: "The most puzzling event in the history of life on the earth is the change from the Mesozoic Age of Reptiles, to the ... Age of Mammals. It is as if the curtain were rung down suddenly on a stage where all the leading roles were taken by reptiles, especially dinosaurs, in great numbers and bewildering variety, and rose again immediately to reveal the same setting but an entirely new cast, a cast in which the dinosaurs do not appear at all, other reptiles are supernumeraries and the leading parts are all played by mammals of sorts barely hinted at in the previous acts" (Life Before Man, 1972, p. 42).

This apparently reflects the change from the pre-Adamic world to the world of man. Certainly there are smaller reptiles in our world, but they are insignificant in comparison to what existed in the previous age.

What has been presented here is not the only "ancient earth" explanation available, but it seems to make the most biblical sense. It is the only explanation I know of that accepts the literal 24-hour days of the creation (or re-creation) week and, at the same time, makes room for an indefinite period before the creation of mankind that could include the dinosaurs and previous eras.

Recent geological and astronomical discoveries, such as cosmic expansion and signs of meteor impacts at the geologic Cretaceous-Tertiary border, better known as the "K-T boundary," have only served to substantiate this view.

So, if anyone tells you he or she doesn't believe in the Bible because of a dilemma with the dinosaurs, let that person know there is more than the young-earth explanation available—one that fits well, as best we know, with the biblical facts. GN

Fortunately, there is no need to dumb down Creation to fit Evolutionary axioms.
A literal reading of the original Hebrew in Genesis can only mean a 6, 24 hour day creation, with man and the large dino’s created on day 6.

Can you explain this a little further?

Unfortunately, the ‘system’ in its determination to deny God’s Creation, has tainted science with its philosophical assumptions and led many to believe that to be true, the Bible must agree with ‘science’ that has been tuned to not offend atheists.Creation has legs, Evolution does not... yet.

Agreed, but as pointed out in a previous post, believing in an old earth doesn't have to mean that evolution is true.

Let's say I agree with you for a moment. How did a beast that weighed 400 tons move on dry land? How did the heart circulate blood up to the head some 75 feet away against gravity? BTW there is a thread on FR about that subject. Just asking.

That was an interesting thread, but I don't remember the name of it. Do you have a link or do you remember?

I thought it made sense that the gravity of the earth was much less back in the dino days.

This is a closed issue... dinosaurs lived with man, not before him. If you choose to give credence to what comes out of the public school systems, you will be an atheist and reject this claim, out of a religious ferver against the Bible. If you choose to live your life by the Bible standard and weigh all things by it alone, you will reject atheism, which is wholly contrary to the Bible.

Reconciliation between evolution and creation is laughable, but good entertainment for Bible believers, since we already know how this show will end.

Dinosaurs lived with man only if you want to pretend about 65 million years never happened, but what's a few years here and there.

Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions....
St. Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis, 1:42-43.

The orignal Hebrew word for 'day' has several meanings:

yowm {yome}

1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)
b) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)
d) time, period (general)
e) year
f) temporal references

1) today
2) yesterday
3) tomorrow

However, when the word yowm(day) is used with the words `ereb(evening) or boqer(morning) or with a number, it can only mean a 24 hour day, never a long period of time.

The word roots for Genesis 1:13 are:

`ereb boqer yowm sh@liyshiy

(evening morning day third)

(Hebrew proceeds right to left)

Hebrew root translations:

`ereb
boqer
sh@liyshiy
yowm

Some little details of Hebrew(from memory):

When in front of a word means 'the'
When if front of a word means 'and'
used to tie words together.(not very clear on the use of this one).

So Genesis 1:13 would translate literally:

And the evening, And the morning, day third.
(my translation)

Clearly a 24 hour day.

And of course in Genesis 1:24-31(day 5), God creates man and the dino's
(The birds came on day 4.[Genesis 1:20-23])

Sources: www.blueletterbible.org

Other things of interest:
About Gap theories.
(Because it will probably come up)

Did I answer your questions effectively?

Did I answer your questions effectively?

Yes, thank you.

I fully agree that it is a literal 24 hour day being discussed in Genesis.

However, the thrust of the article's argument is that an indeterminate amount of time passed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In this theory, the phrase "the earth WAS without" can just as easily grammatically say "the earth BECAME without" and the supposition is that the earth was given over to Lucifer and when he rebelled it caused death and destruction, causing the earth to become a waste. God then recreated it beginning in Genesis 1:2.

For more info: The World Before Man

For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exd 20:11

God told Moses that He made everything recorded in Genesis 1 in 6 days.

Those are 24 hour days.

If there was more than 24 hours contained in Genesis 1:1-5, Then why didn't God say so?

He told us in great detail about all the other aspects of creation.

Did God deceive us or lie?

I think not.

Evolutionists claim millions of years, and people are always trying to dumb down Creation to fit the Evolutionary model.

They did it with Gap Theory by inserting large amounts of time into genealogies, but it didn't hold up.

I rather suspect the same is going on with the idea that there is a large amount of unrecorded time between Genesis 1 verses 1 and 2.

For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exd 20:11 God told Moses that He made everything recorded in Genesis 1 in 6 days. Those are 24 hour days. If there was more than 24 hours contained in Genesis 1:1-5, Then why didn't God say so? He told us in great detail about all the other aspects of creation. Did God deceive us or lie? I think not.

You don't seem to be adverse to studying Hebrew. Look at the word translated "made" in the verse you quoted, Exodus 20:11. Then look at the Hebrew of Genesis and see where "made" first appears. I'll give you a hint: It's Genesis 1:7.

So IF you want to read the Hebrew literally, then Exodus 20:11 is only referring to things "made". Not created. In Genesis 1:1, it's not "made", but "created". It's not just a matter of a different word for the same thing, but it's a different word for a different thing.

Now I realize you can find information out there about why it doesn't make a difference that two different Hebrew words are used, but as far as I can see they never tell WHY God inspired to different words to be used.

He did MAKE everything he listed in Genesis in 6 literal days. But he originally CREATED the heavens and earth BEFORE any of the 6 literal days. The focus of the first "day" is light and dark, not the creation of the heavens and earth.

"lived with man"

All right!!! Then all those Alley Oop and Dinny the dinosaur deniers are just ignorant fools. Now that I remember my Aunt Mildred used to have a pet dinosaur. But maybe that was just Uncle Fred who smoked too many Camels and had a very leathery appearance. She never did go anywhere without putting him on a leash.

Birds were then part of the re-creation that occurred later. It's possible though that creatures that were created later used the same building blocks as creatures that went before which would explain the similarities.

Notice how many times in the creation it's stated, 'after it's kind or after their kind...'

I’m a bible believer. I give no credence at all to evolution. All creatures alive today were created 6000 years ago or so. But as the article suggest I also think the bible strongly hints that there was a creation before our present creation that fell into waste and ruin.

++++

I always thought that the 6000 years started after Adam and Eve were sent out of the Garden.

We do not know how long they were in the garden, nor what was going on outside the garden.

Just a thought.

Actually, we know Adam was created on day 6 and lived for 930 years.

Adam’s third son was born when Adam was 130.

So we know they were driven out within the first 130 years.
(probably sooner rather than later)

We also know from Genesis 1:14 that the method of keeping time was established.

From what is clearly spelled out in Genesis, we can ascertain that the counting of years started on day 1 of creation.

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Where Do the Dinosaurs Fit?

Figuring out when the dinosaurs lived relative to man isn't really so difficult.

by Mario Seiglie