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Posted on 05/08/2008 5:04:47 PM PDT by Grig
I am posting this on behalf of many LDS freepers. They will post their own 'signature' to this in the comments below. --- Some of you have noticed lately a lot of LDS (ie: Mormon) threads here on FR. I'm going to tell you why.
For many years there have been several active LDS freepers here. We post to all the forums on relevant issues, and were happy to have a site where conservative values were so openly welcomed.
Those conservative values include faith in God, and freedom of religion. We fully respect the rights of all posters to express their opinions and views on religious matters, even when people choose to use those rights to express criticism of our own faith. We also support the ideas embodied in FR rules against religion bashing. There is no need for hostility and there should be no room for bigotry on FR. Every religion has it's miracles and mysteries. Every faith has things in it that are not or can not be proven, and things that run contrary to what secular science would have us believe. Someone mature and confident in their own faith generally doesn't feel the need to belittle the faith of others.
We have, to the best of our ability, conducted ourselves with civility and dignity. We do not feel that that respect has been returned by some posters (putting it mildly).
When Mormon missionaries were murdered, the moderators were kept busy pulling jubilant posts off the thread. When Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her home, we contended for months with posters who appeared to be motivated by religious bigotry doing all they could to smear the family and accuse the father. Several posters openly admitted their religious motivation in opposing Mitt Romney and confessed that no matter how conservative any Mormon was, they would never vote for one for President of the USA. When the Pope died, I don't think any Mormon poster posted anything unkind, yet the thread about the passing of our President recently needed many comments removed.
Nearly every thread having any connection with Mormons, or Utah winds up being hijacked by anti-Mormon activists who copy and paste the same false accusations over and over even when it has been clearly and factually pointed out to them on multiple occasions that they are bearing false witness against our faith. Everything possible is done by these activists to make FR a hostile place for Mormons, and for at least some of them, bashing Mormonism is all they do here. Their most recent project is trying to blur the fact that the polygamous FLDS is a separate and distinct religion from ours, just as Lutherans are a separate and distinct religion from Catholicism.
In our opinion, such poster do a great disservice to FR and to their fellow freepers by spreading disinformation and promoting hostility towards a people known for walking the walk of conservative values.
Why the moderators here don't see the behavior of these anti-Mormon activists as religion bashing is a mystery to us, but it is the moderators call to make and we respect their right to do so. That doesn't mean we have to be passive however. We have all spent many hours refuting the accusations leveled at our faith, but these wind up buried deep in a flood of comments, effectively shouting us down.
Recently some of us have decided to take a more proactive approach. Rather than try to wrestle the pig into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down. We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations.
So expect to see lots of Mormon threads, now and for as long as we see fit to keep posting them (although probably not as many as there are Catholic threads). They will be about our basic doctrines and responses to common accusations. If you want to know what our faith is about, read the articles we post. We will post them as open threads and I encourage you to compare the difference in tone and spirit between what we post and what our critics say.
I'd rather seek my guidance from those whom actually seem to live what they read.
Like THESE guys???
INDEED!
(It keeps one dry while hosing...)
Perhaps. I encounter those of many religious persuasions in here.
Crickets......................
Rev. 20: 12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Keeping the commandments of God is not playing games. It's the reason we are here, to walk by faith and live as HE would have us live.
Cheers.
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Now, to the biblical references to us living with God before we came to earth. These are just snippets, the entire context is key, and beautifully to the point.
Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh.
Job 38: 7 all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.
Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him.
Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.
Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.
Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits.
Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate.
Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon.
Further, other apocryphal works, beside the Enoch 2 references earlier also speak to this issue.
“When an ancient spirit is about to come down . . . to that region which they call the kingdom of Adam, that Archon who is at the head of the place gives the preexistent soul a cup of forgetfulness...”
Pistis Sophia
“For the worlds exist, so that intelligent spirits might come and inhabit them...There are many mansions, degrees, and worlds, and they all have but one law.If you keep the law you too can become a creator of worlds.” 2 Coptic Gnostic Work
“As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam recelved affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world.” Berlin Papyrus 8502
“The world has existed through the ages so that the spirits destined to come here might fulfill
their number and destiny and here make their choice between the upper and lower worlds both of which are represented here so that when the bodies the righteous are resurrected they might go to eternal light.” Clementine Recognitions III:1
“Peter taught that God's plan or decree was presented in the presence of all the first angels and which laid down an eternal law for everyone in which all spirits and things would be judged and sent to their proper place. ... Pre-existent man had been around along time before it was decided to create this earth .The whole thing was produced when the time came for his benefit; and though he was created last of all to take it over, in his real nature he is older than any of it .For this reason the world has existed through ages so that the spirits destined to come here might fulfill their number and here make their choice between the upper and lower worlds ,both of which are represented here ,so that when their bodies are resurrected the blessed might go to eternal light and the unrighteous for their impure acts be wrapped in spiritual flame .In this world every man is given a fair chance to show his real desires.... God considered all of the evil that would be among those whom he created, but as one who knew there was no other way to achieve the purpose for which they were created, he went ahead . Evil is forced on no one, it is only there for those who want it and by his own free will deliberately subjects himself to it. God could easily wipe them out but he suffers them to carry on till the appointed day in which the deeds of all men shall be judged.....
Now an angel taught Abraham and showed him the resurrection of the dead which was to come and the judgment which is to come with the reward of the good and the punishment of the bad ,explaining to him how all things are governed by a just law....” Clementine Recognitions II:23-25,40
Mandaean Writings: the Mandaeans of southern Mesopotamia
GINZA:
“Go down to that place where there is no occupied place, where there is no world, and create for us another world after the fashion of the Sons of Salvation ...
God started out by creating a topos where His children could settle, there to recognize and to serve Him as their Father...
Adam., this is the place where you are going to live; your wife Eve will come and Join you here, and here your progeny will thrive...
The Father taught me about the worlds of the Lord and the Glory that abides in them. The Adam of light treads upon the earth's trembling foundation which is laid in the midst of the worlds...
There is no rivalry or competition among them, but they are glorious in their firmaments, and there ia agreement among them, fitting together like the lashes to the eye. All rejoice in each other, each being more glorious and bright than the other...
‘No words can describe Thy power over all Thy worlds...’
When beings from different worlds meet, they exchange garments and treasures an identification a sign of mutual esteem. For the creation of endless worlds follows a single pattern — that laid down by God the creator. The planet say, ‘Come Lord of the gods, Lord of the entire cosmos.’ (They rejoice and say) ‘Come be our head, be the head of our whole world’..
“In the million of worlds that God has made for his sons every world is different from the other and wonderful in its own radiance.
Among ten thousand times ten thousand world you will find no two alike. Before this world, there had already been a thousand thousand mysteries and a myriad myriad of planets each with their own mysteries or ordinances.
He who has fulfilled all the ordinances and has done good work cannot be held back. We are taught the principles of salvation, so that we cannot be held back in this world...
When Adam stood praying for light and knowledge, a helper came to him and gave to him a garment and told him, ‘Those men who gave you the garment will assist you throughout your life until you are ready to leave earth.’..
When Adam was created, he was found in a deep sleep, from which he was awakened by the helper who forthwith began to instruct him. And at his death also, the Sent Ones came to take Adam back to the great first Paternal House and to the places in which he formerly dwelt.
Second— when Adam awoke, be faced the light and called for help. The Lord Himself approached him, in glory, and took him by the palm of the right hand instructed him and calmed him and Then he comforted Eve. ‘In this way, I have brought joy and aid to his descendants.’ The Sent Ones came to bring hope to Adam, who was in, the image of God...
At the creation, God gave orders that the angels should come to keep Adam company. At the beginning, it was the Lord Himself and two companions who instructed Adam and Eve in everything.
‘Go down into the world, Adam, and grow up in the body, in that garment which has been assigned to you. Go down and grow up in the ordinances, that the ordinances may be magnified by you, that your progeny may thereby be firmly established. The Man that taught the elect righteous and the Nazoreans, who were to exist upon the earth in the preexistence, said, ‘When you beget generations, and when you teach them their knowledge, explain to them, show them, and tell them about the rites which you have performed.’ The wholesome things were transplanted
from the world above”
The evil spirits, who claim this world for their own, resent the Sent One's instruction. ‘These three men are in the world,’ they say, ‘but they were not really men. They are light and glory, and they have come down to little ‘Enosh’ [that's physical man — Adam] who is helpless and alone in the world. They are intruding on our world. The children of men have taken over the earth. They are really strangers who speak the language of the three men. They have accepted the teachings of the three men, and rejected in our own world. They refuse to acknowledge our kingdom and our glory ‘
Thus, the evil ones plotted to overthrow Adam, who was hoping for Mandadihaya (Teacher of Life), the messenger from the Father, to come-and give him aid and support.
When; Adam called upon God, the Great Spirit sent them from the land…
The Lord and two companions taught Adam and Eve all the ordinances and blessed them. ‘The Great Light planted us here and gave us helpers who taught us the prayer of Adam in the world.’ Three angels were sent to teach Adam and Eve the law of chastity, and to instruct them to be true and faithful when misfortune came upon them, and to dedicate all of their property to the needy and the poor — the rule which is binding upon all the elect. They were to call upon God without ceasing, in the name of the Son, and not to trust in the things of this world. “
Prayerbook of the Mandaeans
“When Adam was placed on earth, three messengers were sent to oversee him with myself at their head... I taught Adam and Eve the hymns, and the order of prayer, and the ordinances by which would now help one to return to the presence of the Father.” In sending three, God says to them, giving them instructions. He said to the pure sent one, His Son, ‘Go call Adam and Eve and all their posterity and teach them concerning everything about the Kingdom of Light and the Worlds of Light. Be friendly with Adam and keep him company, you and the two angels which will be with you. Warn them against Satan; also, teach them chastity’.
The helper came and awakened the Lord of Mysteries, who is Adam. For Adam went through all the ordinances, including baptism, washings’ and anointings,”
From The Books of Jeu
“In any world as a Yeu becomes a Father in a new world, the Fathers then appoint new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn will become Fathers. Each Yeu has created for its hosts ten thousand times ten thousand. The farther advanced one is, the faster one moves forward To them that have shall be given...We are passed on from hand to hand, from degree to degree !! Our example is Adam, who, having been established in Christ and God, next established his son Seth in the second order which was to follow Him on up...
I will teach you all of the ordinances necessary, that you might be purged by degrees and progress in the next life. These things make it possible for you to achieve other places (other topol), but they must be performed in this life. Unless one performs them here, he cannot become a ‘Son of Light’. By very definition, the ‘Sons of Light’ are those that are perfect in the ordinances...these ordinances are very secret...’Sons of Light’ in whatever age they lived, and they receive whatever they desire, they are those upon the right hand of the Father, for it is by their faithfulness in these things that they show they are worthy to return and inherit the kingdom. Without the ordinances, therefore, there is no foothold or foundation to anything in this life... If you want to go to the Father you must pass through the veil…
At this sign the angels move the veil aside and you enter into the presence of the Father who gives you his name and seal ... The world is a system of veils or vestments each a room of the Temple. Man is organized on the same principle. There is a place from which all worlds take their origin and prototype a place of shadowless light and indescribable joy... and there is a veil between the worlds Above the veil are the heavens .The Firmament is equipped with veils and gates that are guarded far removed from the world in which men dwell.”
From The Pistis Sophia (Ancient Egyptian Coptic Document)
“There is an appointed place for everything in the Cosmos. There is ‘numeristics’: there is a numbering of souls for each world and a dispensation is not completed until the teleos-number (completed number) has been fulfilled for that dispensation. Every soul stays in its appointed place until it has fulfilled the task for the topos, for that place... After the plan of creation was
accepted, it was communicated to all the other worlds, and they approved and rejoiced... All other worlds look to the same God also to the common Son.... I found an ordinance inscribed upon my garment
written in five words. ‘It is the garment which belonged to you in the pre-existence, from the beginning, and when your time come on the earth, you will remove it and return home to us.’ In this garment, it had the five marks “
From Second Coptic Gnostic Work
“For the world exist, so that intelligent spirits might come and inhabit them...
There are many mansions, regions, spaces, heavens degrees, and worlds and they all have but one law. If you keep. that law you too can become a creator of worlds....
Adam, finding himself alone in the dreary world knew that he could not save himself. So he called mightily upon God for a helper. It is because Adam received power to call upon, the holy and perfect name, that be was able to establish the plan of life in the new world.”
From Papyrus Berolinensis
“Creation is organization and God is ever bringing order into the universe and
He is progressively ever preparing and renewing worlds for the righteous...
At the time of the creation, the great thought came to the elements, united with them, spirit joining with matter.”
From The Berlin Papyrus 8502
“The first man was the third of the Sent Ones— the Father, the Son, and Adam...As he left Heaven to come down and undergo his earthly trials, Adam received affectionate farewell embraces from all his faithful children. He put on his physical body and went forth to oppose the primal enemy. Before the creation of this world, the third Sent One (as Adam is called) came into the free space and began to organize this world. “This third Sent One was Christ's great coworker in the Plan of Salvation, but in all things he has precedence....
At their new birth Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came. and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the Gospel to him”
From The Apocryphon of John
“After the physical Adam’ was created, a messenger was sent to the head Of all creations, Adam, and at his call Adam awoke and said, ‘How the precious, beautiful life has been planted in this place. But it is hard on me; down here.’ Then the Sent One reminded Adam and said, ‘But your beautiful throne awaits you, Adam. Why then do you, the image of God, sit here complaining? All this is being done for your good. I have been sent to teach you, Adam, and to free you from this world. Listen and return to the light.’ Hither a messenger from the house of light was sent to fetch Adam farther when he was ready.”
Christians do good works because they are save and have already earned God's grace simply by accepting his son. It is the acceptance of that grace that transforms the heart and makes us do good works, as you said to live as he wishes us to.
Unlike other faiths it is not best hopes and wishes. Christians know they are saved up front. All they have to do is keep the gift that is given and be worthy
I think we are arguing on the same side ;-)
And I don't know about a raincoat but an asbestos coverall may be in order...
Oops...gasmask too I guess.
No one charges money to accept Jesus Christ as Savior. Most offerings are on a free-will basis, a contrast to the mandated 10% in mormondom (audited by the higher-ups), and associated requirement for temple recommend. The bible does not say that a minister cannot be paid, Paul made that point very clear. What is at issue here is GREED, and that is forbidden in 1 Timothy and 1 Peter. Paul makes it clear in 1 Cor ministers are allowed to be paid. Citing Jesus Paul wrote:
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. King James Version 1611, 1769
Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel. New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
In the same way, the Lord gave orders that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society
In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles
So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation
Even so did the Lord ordain that they that proclaim the gospel should live of the gospel. American Standard Version 1901
So also the Lord has ordained to those that announce the glad tidings to live of the glad tidings. J.N.Darby Translation 1890
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they who preach the gospel should live by the gospel. Noah Webster Version 1833
IMHO, God wants people to owe him their loyalty, not a church which is paying the bills.
Loyality enforced by a 10% mandated levy?
LOL, you beat me to it!
It will help for a bit I guess...
Oops...gasmask too I guess.
Well guess that's it for now. In the meantime there must be others that need to be told they are enemies of "your" God and are going to hell. Have a nice evening your holiness.
Well guess that's it for now. In the meantime there must be others that need to be told they are enemies of "your" God and are going to hell. Have a nice evening your holiness.
Ah...
CONTEXT!
Such a WONDERFUL thing!
Ah...
CONTEXT!
Such a WONDERFUL thing!
While he is my God, he is also the only God, so you can take from that what you may...
Again if it is holiness you seek, I would direct you else where....
I don't understand the insatiable desire on your part to disseminate disinformation on such a constant basis. Is it just ignorance, or are there ulterior motives here? Wouldn't a more reasoned approach be much more enjoyable, & frankly, more enlightening?
Members have their free agency to pay tithing or not. It is a matter between the member & their bishop, & that normally only if the member brings it up.
It's the obedience to a commandment of the Lord & the associated blessings therewith that bring members to pay tithing, not b/c it's mandated by the church.
BTW, you might find Malachi 3:8-10 in the OT interesting:
“8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it”.
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