Why so many LDS threads?

I am posting this on behalf of many LDS freepers. They will post their own 'signature' to this in the comments below. --- Some of you have noticed lately a lot of LDS (ie: Mormon) threads here on FR. I'm going to tell you why.

For many years there have been several active LDS freepers here. We post to all the forums on relevant issues, and were happy to have a site where conservative values were so openly welcomed.

Those conservative values include faith in God, and freedom of religion. We fully respect the rights of all posters to express their opinions and views on religious matters, even when people choose to use those rights to express criticism of our own faith. We also support the ideas embodied in FR rules against religion bashing. There is no need for hostility and there should be no room for bigotry on FR. Every religion has it's miracles and mysteries. Every faith has things in it that are not or can not be proven, and things that run contrary to what secular science would have us believe. Someone mature and confident in their own faith generally doesn't feel the need to belittle the faith of others.

We have, to the best of our ability, conducted ourselves with civility and dignity. We do not feel that that respect has been returned by some posters (putting it mildly).

When Mormon missionaries were murdered, the moderators were kept busy pulling jubilant posts off the thread. When Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her home, we contended for months with posters who appeared to be motivated by religious bigotry doing all they could to smear the family and accuse the father. Several posters openly admitted their religious motivation in opposing Mitt Romney and confessed that no matter how conservative any Mormon was, they would never vote for one for President of the USA. When the Pope died, I don't think any Mormon poster posted anything unkind, yet the thread about the passing of our President recently needed many comments removed.

Nearly every thread having any connection with Mormons, or Utah winds up being hijacked by anti-Mormon activists who copy and paste the same false accusations over and over even when it has been clearly and factually pointed out to them on multiple occasions that they are bearing false witness against our faith. Everything possible is done by these activists to make FR a hostile place for Mormons, and for at least some of them, bashing Mormonism is all they do here. Their most recent project is trying to blur the fact that the polygamous FLDS is a separate and distinct religion from ours, just as Lutherans are a separate and distinct religion from Catholicism.

In our opinion, such poster do a great disservice to FR and to their fellow freepers by spreading disinformation and promoting hostility towards a people known for walking the walk of conservative values.

Why the moderators here don't see the behavior of these anti-Mormon activists as religion bashing is a mystery to us, but it is the moderators call to make and we respect their right to do so. That doesn't mean we have to be passive however. We have all spent many hours refuting the accusations leveled at our faith, but these wind up buried deep in a flood of comments, effectively shouting us down.

Recently some of us have decided to take a more proactive approach. Rather than try to wrestle the pig into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down. We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations.

So expect to see lots of Mormon threads, now and for as long as we see fit to keep posting them (although probably not as many as there are Catholic threads). They will be about our basic doctrines and responses to common accusations. If you want to know what our faith is about, read the articles we post. We will post them as open threads and I encourage you to compare the difference in tone and spirit between what we post and what our critics say.

Real works, not dead works, are not only essential, they are commanded, for they bring us to the grace of Christ, which is the only way to the Father. The commandments are before us, and have been given to all men, in all times. We live by a code of doing the will of the Father, and coming unto Christ.

Indeed, no man comes to the Father but by Christ. Many in the Christian world use this as a means, some even as an excuse to willfully sin, commit adultery, fornicate, lie, cheat, steal, etc. This is not what was meant for us. Surely the heavens must weep when God looks down and sees the pornography epidemic sweeping this nation and world, when He sees homes broken and families destroyed, when sex is used as means to instant gratification and abandonment.

Consider these references:

James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily blood,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the adevils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Philip. 2: 12

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rev. 20: 12-13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Here's some more snippets that you can look up in their entirety that explain the LDS position.

2 Chr. 15: 7 Be ye strong . . . for your work shall be rewarded.
Ps. 28: 4 (Rev. 2: 23) Give them according to their deeds.
Ps. 62: 12 (Prov. 24: 12, 29; Rom. 2: 5-11) renderest to every man according to his work.
Eccl. 12: 14 God shall bring every work into judgment.
Jer. 17: 10 (Jer. 32: 19) to give every man according to his ways.
Micah 6: 8 do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly.
Matt. 5: 6 they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness.
Matt. 5: 16 that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father.
Matt. 7: 12 whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.
Matt. 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Matt. 13: 23 received seed into the good ground . . . beareth fruit.
Matt. 16: 27 (1 Cor. 3: 8; Alma 9: 27-28; D&C 138: 59) shall reward every man according to his works.
Matt. 25: 40 as ye have done it unto one of the least of these . . . ye have done it unto me.
John 3: 21 he that doeth truth cometh to the light.
John 8: 39 If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me.
Acts 10: 35 he that . . . worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Rom. 2: 13 doers of the law shall be justified.
2 Cor. 5: 10 receive . . . according to that he hath done.
Gal. 6: 4 let every man prove his own work.
Gal. 6: 7 whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Eph. 2: 10 created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
Eph. 5: 9 fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness.
2 Tim. 3: 17 perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 3: 8 be careful to maintain good works.
Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will.
James 1: 22 be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only.
James 1: 27 Pure religion . . . is this, To visit the fatherless.
James 2: 22 by works was faith made perfect.
James 2: 26 faith without works is dead.
James 4: 17 him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not.
1 Pet. 1: 17 (Rev. 20: 12-13; 1 Ne. 15: 32; Mosiah 3: 24; Alma 33: 22; D&C 19: 3; D&C 76: 111; D&C 137: 9) Father . . . judgeth according to every man’s work.
1 Pet. 2: 12 your good works . . . glorify God.
2 Pet. 1: 5 add to your faith virtue.
1 Jn. 3: 18 let us not love in word . . . but in deed.
1 Jn. 3: 22 we receive of him, because we keep his commandments.
Rev. 22: 14 blessed are they that do his commandments.

DU: “A Tithing was not a commandment in the church until after the Government took all the property of the church and made us buy it back. (which is unconstitutional).”

DU, you NEVER give the full story. The Tithing REVELATION came to Smith (well before any expropriations) because he was denied a salary at Far West. The reason Smith needed that salary was because he’d been run out of Kirtland for bank fraud and was being forced to pay fines. Smith had needed the Kirtland money because he’d run his earlier merchant store into the ground, defrauding those who had leant him that merchandise on credit. Kirtland was his scam after he couldn’t find any buried treasure in the walls of some widows house.

So, Smith just moved from one grifter scheme to another. It all started with his digging for buried pirate treasure on a farm, that’s how he met Emma. But he’d been in to tricking people with his peepstone act for a long time before then.

Regarding tithing, I quote from Ebeneezer Robinson, who also quotes from Smith’s Journal:

******************
JOSEPH SMITH: Saturday, May 12, 1838, President Rigdon and myself attended the High Council for the purpose of presenting for their consideration some business relating to our pecuniary concerns.

We stated to the Council our situation, as to maintaining our families, and the relation we now stand in to the Church, spending as we have for eight years, our time, talents, and property, in the service of the Church: and being reduced as it were to beggary, and being still retained in the business and service of the Church, it appears necessary that something should be done for the support of our families by the Church, or else we must do it by our own labors; and if the Church say to us, “help yourselves,” we will thank them and immediately do so; but if the Church say, “Serve us,” some provision must be made for our sustenance.

The Council investigated the matter, and instructed the Bishop to make over to President Joseph Smith, junior, and Sidney Rigdon, each an eighty-acre lot of land from the property of the Church, situated adjacent to the city corporation; also appointed three of their number, viz., George W. Harris, Elias Higbee and Simeon Carter, a committee to confer with said Presidency, and satisfy them for their services the present year; not for preaching, or for receiving the word of God by revelation, neither for instructing the Saints in righteousness, but for services rendered in the printing establishment, in translating the ancient records, &c., &c. Said committee agreed that Presidents Smith and Rigdon should receive [$1,100 each] as a just remuneration for their services this year. * * *

EBENEEZER: The above named committee reported to the High Council, at a subsequent meeting, but the sum agreed upon is left blank in the history, as printed. The amount they asked for was ELEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS each per annum.

The question was warmly discussed by the members of the Council until near sundown. George M. Hinkle bitterly opposed it, as the church had always been opposed to a salaried ministry. A majority of the Council however, favored the measure, so that when the vote

[137]

was called, eleven voted for it, and one against it. But when it was noised abroad that the Council had taken such a step, the members of the church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it. The expression of disapprobation was so strong and emphatic, that at the next meeting of the High Council the resolution voting them a salary, was rescinded.

We were present, and acted as clerk of the Council at both meetings, therefore know whereof we affirm.

A few days after the High Council refused to give a salary to Joseph Smith, jr. and Sidney Rigdon, the TITHING revelation of July 8, 1838, was given, in which the poor are not mentioned. But more on this subject hereafter. We now give further quotations from the history of Joseph Smith, jr. in which he says:

* * *
EBENEEZER:

It will be remembered that on page 137 of the September number of THE RETURN, we gave an account of the High Council at Far West, in June, rescinding the vote which had previously passed, granting a salary to Presidents Joseph Smith, jr., and Sidney Rigdon, which left them without a salary. Therefore, four days after their declaration of Independence, Joseph Smith, jr., inquired of the Lord “how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing?” notwithstanding it was already stated in a revelation in the book of Doctrine and Covenants what the Lord required of his people for a tithing, and he received the following:

JOSEPH SMITH:
TITHING REVELATION:
“Revelation given at Far West, Mo. July 8, 1838.

In answer to the question, O Lord, show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing?

1. Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, for the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion, and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the presidency of my church; and this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people; and, after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever,

[150]

for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

2. Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you; and this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. — D. C. 106.

EBENEEZER: There is no mention made of the poor in this revelation, and being personally acquainted with the circumstances under which it was given, we never could feel that the Lord ever gave it for the good of his people, neither can we believe it after seeing its practical workings for fifty years. We verily believe, if the Lord had anything to do with it, it was upon the principle set forth in the 14th chapter of Ezekiel; they evidently had “set up an idol in their hearts,” and the Lord answered them “according to their idols.”

We feel sure that had the High Council at Far West, carried out the resolution, and paid Joseph Smith, jr. and Sidney Rigdon, the salary they asked for, of eleven hundred dollars each per year, we would never have seen this tithing revelation. The church had been in existence over eight years, and had seen its purest, happiest days before that was given.

****************
DU: The Kirtalnd bank failed because the board made some dumb decisions.

Dumb decisions like like running an unlicensed bank and printing backed by nothing. I just don’t have time to bring up all the gory details right now, but dumb decisions are what you normally get from a grifter.

The link you cite to the Kirtland ledger is behind a login. If you have an active link where it can be downloaded it would be appreciated, the BYU links I’ve tried in the past never worked.

As far as “Who’s puffy now?” I only stop my rebuttal for lack of time. However, it’s clear Smith wasn’t adverse to taking a salary, so perhaps he was the corrupt one and not Godzilla.

Chiasm in the Book of Mormon

Mormon apologists have made much of the discovery of chiasms in the Book of Mormon. A chiasm (also called “chiasmus”), named after the Greek letter ‘chi’ which resembles the letter ‘X’, is a literary device where a series of statements or phrases is followed by a reversed restatement of the same phrases: A, B, C, D, d, c, b, a.

This literary device was discovered in the Bible in the 19th century, and Mormon apologists discovered it then also in the Book of Mormon. They present this as evidence that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired, since chiasm had not yet been recognized in the Bible when Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon.

Chiasm loses all of its persuasiveness as evidence for the divinity of the Book of Mormon when one realizes that it is a literary device which can occur quite naturally in non-divine writings as well, and that an author need not be consciously aware of the device, nor know its name, to make literary use of it. Joseph Smith’s diary, for example, does not claim to be divinely inspired nor to be an ancient document, yet the entry for April 1, 1834, is an excellent example of chiasm:

A the Lord shall destroy him
B who has lifted his heel against me even that wicked man Docter P. H[u]rlbut
C he [will] deliver him to the fowls of heaven
and
c his bones shall be cast to the blast of the wind
b [for] he lifted his [arm] against the Almity
a therefore the Lord shall destroy him

I am Sam.
Sam I am.

I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
Would you like them here or there?
I would not like them here or there.
I would not like them anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Vernal Holley, in his book Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look, 3rd ed., p 26, (on line here) points out that Solomon Spaulding’s “Manuscript Story” (also called “Manuscript Found”), considered by many - including Holley - to be a major source of Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon, also contains quite a few examples of chiasmus. And yet no Mormon apologist would consider that fact as evidence that Spaulding’s story is actually Hebrew scripture.

http://packham.n4m.org/linguist.htm#CHIASMUS

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/utlm?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Chiasmus+&btnG=Search

Hi sevenbak,
I’m glad that you do, but since Jesus is come in flesh, the Head of Days is seen only in the face of Jesus, who is “God SEEN“, alone and only, and who was always with the “UNSEEN Father” as God the Word.
And the Son of Man is the “the other same self” -an alter ego- of God the Word, who was hidden in God, the Great Glory, from the beginning, and in whose image to come Adam is made [Romans 5:14; Genesis 1:26-28].
There is no other Person/Face in YHWH who is ever to be seen, has ever been seen, and shall ever be seen, than the Great Glory -God the Word/Oath- who is now come in flesh of second human being creation as our Kinsman/Redeemer [because He wants His own back, for the Glory].
The Holy Spirit ‘appeared’ in the form of a Smoking Furnace, in Genesis 17, with the Word appearing in the form of the Burning Light; and the two Persons in YHWH did so appear to legally ratify the land covenant given to Abraham [which is an everlasting covenant and cannot be broken by any man; Israel, the seed of Abraham through Isaac, gets the land, and God gets the Glory for it].
The Holy Spirit also appeared in the form of a dove, at Jesus’ baptism, but the Holy Spirit does not dwell in that ‘form’, nor does Christ ‘dwell’ in the burning Light form, as seen in the Bush, the pillar of fire, and as the Arrow of God sent forth. The face of God is seen in the Son of Man who is come, did die, did ascend, and did get the Glory back, which He had “with the Father” before the world was, as the Great Glory, seen by Enoch, who stripped Himself bare naked of that Glory, and came to appear to all nations as the Son of Man who was with God, was God, and is God the Creator and who made all things, upholds all things, and offers redemption back ,to the Father by adoption into His own second Man name, for all in Adam -for the Glory.

Jesus is the same Person seen Hidden as another same self of the Great Glory, pre-incarnation, seen by Enoch, alone, in heaven, who was to come down, die, and ascend, redeeming those who call upon His name, and by that, becoming united with Him, whom He then unites with the Father -and heaven, for the Glory.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].
His face is the only face of YHWH visible, and He is now come in flesh forever, of the second human being Creation, to build a temple of adopted souls for the Glory to indwell forever, in the regeneration [which is what Adam’s purpose was for and why Adam was made male and female -Genesis 5:2, in Hebrew], and which is what Adam lost in the defilement and can never attain.

Once defiled for the Glory the Adam flesh is forever unfit for restoration, but must be elementally changed and regenerated in the image of the second Man to receive the Glory which he was formed for, as Adam, son of God -of the human kind. That lesson is in Leviticus [as an oracle of the law] on the defilement of clay vessels used for the glory in the temple, and in Haggai chapter 2, in the parable of the first and second house built for the Glory, and the lesson of an unclean vessel defiling any offering brought before the Glory. Only the second “vessel”, made for the Glory could bring any acceptable offering before the Glory, which is why Adam is out/cut off forever before the face of God in the 8th day of creation [which is the lesson in circumcision which Abraham’s descendents wear in their flesh, until that is fulfilled], and Israel [the name of the second Man; Isaiah 49] is the bearer of the Glory, and exists before the Face of God forever. To have the Glory we must be born again in Christ. In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive [whosever will].

This is all in direct opposition to the false teaching of Mormonism, but this is the doctrine of the Person and Word of God come in human being flesh, as second creation Man.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Isa 52:10 YHWH stripped bare naked/chasaph his holy arm [the Branch] in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation/Yeshua of our God.

chasaph 1) to strip, strip off, lay bare, make bare, draw out
a) (Qal)
1) to strip off
2) to strip, lay bare

Phl 2:5¶Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Look at that passage in the Greek http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Phl&chapter=2&verse=7&version=KJV#7
He was in the form of God the Great Glory, and stripped Himself of that Glory, and came in the likeness of sinful flesh [but without the sin, as a second Man].

Look at Isaiah 59, in the Hebrew. YHWH donned the garments of an ‘Isyh -translated as ‘man’ and is what Adam [which is also translated as man] was mde to be, over earth], to bring forth the justice for earth that there was no ‘Isyh living, to do, and came as our Kinsman to do the Justice for earth and to redeem the lost and the kingdom, back for Himself.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.