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A Testimony to God's Grace [ex-nun's true story]
Catholic concerns ^ | October 2003 | Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

Posted on 03/27/2008 10:33:22 AM PDT by Gamecock

I joined the Roman Catholic Church because I was looking for God. I entered the convent because I wanted to be close to God and to serve Him with radical devotion. But it wasn't until after I left Catholicism that I found the kind of relationship with God that I had been looking for all along. You can read about it in my poems.

My pastor and my father have both advised me not to give out personal information. This biography is an attempt to share my heart and my life within the framework of their advice.

I started out as a "liberal" intellectual who was prejudiced against Christianity. I had been taught to believe that Christians were gullible people who were either stupid or uneducated. I was basically an agnostic who didn't know or care whether God existed. For me, the idea of God was irrelevant. I looked to science, psychology, and politics to save mankind from its problems.

During my senior year in high school, I fell in love with a young man who was a devout Catholic. That was my first encounter with someone who strongly believed in God. I may have met Christians before that, but they didn't make their Christian beliefs known to me.

This young man prayed. He loved God. He was a man of principle and integrity. His life was guided by his religious beliefs. He had hope. He had a kind of compassion and respect for people that I had not seen before. There was something different about him. I didn't know what it was, but whatever it was, I wanted it. I figured that it had something to do with his religion, so I started taking instruction in Catholicism. The young man moved away and I didn't see him again, but I continued studying Catholicism.

During my first year of college I majored in biology. I also studied French and Latin. I went to a local priest every week for instruction. Under his direction, I studied many books including the "Baltimore Catechism" and biographies of well known modern Catholics. This was in the days of the Latin Mass, before there was a formal catechumen program. When I returned home for the summer, I found another priest to continue my instruction.

I was unable to return to college the following year. I found another priest to instruct me. For several years I continued to study with that priest, while working to earn money for college. The priest gave me more books to study including a series of booklets on Scripture. (There was a booklet for each book of the Bible. On each page, the top half of the page contained Scripture and the bottom half contained a Catholic commentary about those portions of Scripture.)

My job was close to a Catholic Church, and I went to Mass during lunch hour. I prayed for God to give me faith. I was praying even though I wasn't sure that God existed. My very first prayer was, "God, if You're out there, show me." I didn't take communion because I wasn't a Catholic. I only said as much of the Apostles Creed as I actually believed. It was a long time before I could even say the opening phrase, "I believe in God".

After several years I was baptized a Roman Catholic. Soon afterwards, my brother also became a Catholic. His instruction was through group classes. I attended those classes with him. I was hungry to learn anything that I could about God.

I went to a Catholic college and majored in Religious Education. My classes on Scripture taught a lot of modern "higher criticism," and some of my Religious Education teachers taught things that seemed to be contrary to the official teachings of the Catholic Church. I found a conservative priest and I checked teachings out with him to see if they were the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Because I no longer trusted the teachings of the Religious Education department, I changed majors.

When I entered the convent, I was careful to choose a conservative one which followed the official teachings of the Catholic Church. My training for religious life included studying the documents of the Second Vatican Counsel, other books relating to Catholic doctrine, and biographies of well known saints.

I spent over two years as a postulant and a novice. This was a time of testing for the leaders of the convent, and for me, to decide whether or not I should make vows. My mother superior had some questions about my calling, and she and the leadership decided that I should not remain in the convent. I left the convent on good terms and have occasionally been in contact with the sisters since then.

Our mother superior was very careful about which priests she allowed to say Mass at our convent. We had priests who were loyal to God and to the Catholic Church. They believed the Bible. They were faithful men.

When I left the convent and went to live with my parents, I couldn't find priests like that. The local priests seemed to have little faith and little loyalty, either to God or to the Catholic Church. I remember one Mass where the homily (a short sermon) was so distressing that I left in tears. I stayed outside, weeping. But then I went back in, in order to take communion. I tried every Catholic church in town, but I couldn't find a good priest.

I vividly remember a priest who spoke about Luke 7:38-50. This was the time when Jesus ate in the home of a Pharisee and a woman came and wept and washed Jesus' feet with her tears, and dried them with her hair, and anointed them with ointment. The Pharisee was critical. Jesus told him that he had not washed Jesus' feet, but the woman did. He had not greeted Jesus with a kiss, but the woman kissed his feet. The Catholic priest said that this event must not have really happened, because it would be rude for a guest to say something like that to his host, and Jesus would never have been rude. This illustrates an attitude towards Scripture which I encountered with a number of priests. It was very distressing.

Meanwhile, my parents had become Christians. They had joined a little Methodist church where the pastor believed the Bible and loved the people. Because the local Catholic churches were distressing, I started doing the splits. I went to early morning Mass (out of duty) and then I attended the Methodist church. When my parents joined another Scripturally based Protestant church, I followed them there, while still attending early morning Mass on Sundays. I did the splits for years.

I made myself go to Mass out of duty. But I went to my parents' church eagerly. I learned exciting things about the Bible there. I sang songs that stirred my soul. I took classes that made me more and more hungry for Scripture. I got to know people who were enthusiastic about God. I learned that Biblical principles really work, and that they make a significant practical difference in real life situations.

As I learned more about the Bible, I began to realize that some Catholic teachings are contrary to Scripture. This was disturbing, but I kind of pushed those contradictions to the back of my mind and didn't deal with them. They made me uneasy, but I wasn't emotionally able to handle the idea that there might be something wrong with the Catholic Church.

My brother was a devout Catholic. He assisted the priests at Mass for many years. He lived several hours' drive away from us. We had a tradition that on Easter and Christmas, he would come visit and we would go to Midnight Mass together.

One Christmas, at Midnight Mass, the priest taught that the Christmas story as presented in the Bible is basically a pious fairy tale to make people feel good, but it has nothing to do with reality. My brother got so angry that he wanted to jump up and shout, "Are we here to celebrate it or to debate it?"

The next day, we went to church with our parents. The pastor there told us that Daniel had been in charge of the "wise men" of Babylon (magi). Therefore, they knew about Baalam's prophecy that the King of the Jews would be heralded by a star. Their religion included watching the stars for signs. So when they saw the special star, they realized that it signaled the coming of this special King of the Jews. Also, one of their functions was to decide who the valid king was if there was a controversy about it. So when they came to confirm that Jesus was truly the King of the Jews, they were fulfilling their official function.

Needless to say, the contrast was striking. And troubling. I did a lot of praying after that. By the following Easter, I had left the Catholic Church and joined my parents' church.

I didn't know what to tell my brother and his wife, because they were coming to visit at Easter, and I did not want to go to Midnight Mass with them. We had a long, awkward telephone conversation. Then I finally told them. They started laughing. They had also left the Catholic Church, and were in the process of visiting different churches, trying to find a church home.

There was a prayer that had a major impact on my life, but I don't remember the exact words. When I prayed it, I was crying and I didn't know why. And afterwards, things were different, but it's hard to put into words. The prayer was something like this:

"Jesus, I want to know You. Please reveal Yourself to me and make the Bible come alive for me. I want to be clean and start over again. Please forgive my sins. Wash them away and set me free. I want to live right. Please change my heart. Help me love what You love, and turn away from things that displease You. You know what's best for me. I want to do things Your way. Please be the Lord of my life. Teach me to love the way You love. Help me be faithful to You. Thank You for loving me and for hearing this prayer. Thank You for being my Lord and my Savior."

Since then I have been struggling with issues related to Catholicism. The papers that I have written have emerged from that struggle.

In addition to being a former nun, I am also a widow. My husband and I were very close, and his death introduced me to a level of emotional pain that I didn't know was possible. The articles which I have written about finding God's comfort during times of adversity were born out of my own experience.

My testimony is not unusual. A number of former Catholics have written me sharing how they found a living, personal relationship with God when they became born-again, Bible-believing, Protestants.

Some ex-Catholics read my testimony and wrote to me, wanting to be sure that Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Savior. (He is.) An ex-nun befriended me. Two former priests gave me wise counsel. Other ex-Catholic friends have shared their hearts, their wisdom, and valuable information. I am deeply grateful for these people. May the Lord bless them for their kindness.

POEM

Your Word brings life to save my soul. Your Truth brings light to make me whole.

Your perfect love casts out my fears, Comforts me, and dries my tears.

I'm in the shadow of Your wings Where you teach my heart to sing.

Safe and secure from all alarm, Your faithful love keeps me from harm.

I will bless You all my days. You fill my heart with songs of praise.

NUNS AND NOVICES

I was in religious life for a little over two years. I was a novice but I never made vows. A novice is someone who has entered a religious order and has been given a habit. He or she undergoes training and "religious formation" in preparation for taking vows. (There are novice monks as well as novice nuns.)

Some people have asked me why I call myself a former nun when I never made vows. According to "The Catholic Encyclopedia," if a monk or a nun has been accepted by a religious order (which I was) and has been given a religious habit (which I wore), then he or she is a monk or a nun in the broad sense of the term. [Note 1] So I refer to myself as a former nun.

WHAT I BELIEVE

Some people have asked me what I believe. In describing my beliefs, I am going to avoid technical terms. I am also going to avoid the issues about which different Protestant churches disagree, such as church government, form of worship, details about the Second Coming of Christ, and the relationship between predestination and free will.

I believe many things which are not in this summary. If I tried to go into them all, this would become too long and cumbersome. I am only going to mention some key areas. If I fail to mention something which you consider to be a foundational Christian doctrine, that does not necessarily mean that I don't believe it. It just means that I didn't mention it.

I believe in the three "solas" of the Protestant Reformation. We are saved by faith alone (not faith plus works). We are saved by faith in Jesus alone (not Jesus plus something else). Our rule of faith is the Bible alone (not the Bible plus tradition or other writings).

Saving faith is demonstrated by loving and obeying God, and by doing good works. These are the results of salvation, not the cause of it.

Christianity works for all Christians under all circumstances. There are some countries where Christians are severely persecuted. In these countries, Bibles are scarce, and Christians are not able to meet publicly. Some Christians have been put in prison for their faith, without Bibles, and often without being able to see fellow Christians. If Christians do not have Bibles to guide them and encourage them, then God has other ways of guiding them and strengthening them. God is not limited by our circumstances.

It is valuable to have Bibles and pastors and teachers and church meetings. If they are available, then we should benefit from them as much as possible. But if those things are not available, then God is powerful enough to enable us to live godly lives without them. Jesus promised us that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth (John 16:13) and teach us "all things" (John 14:26). God is able to keep us from falling. (Jude 1:24)

I believe in the authority and the accuracy of the Bible. I believe that it is the inspired Word of God. Jesus said that the Father showed Him what to say. (John 12:49) Surely our God is capable of doing the same thing for the men who wrote the books of the Bible.

Through the Bible, God shows us His nature and His character. He shows us what we should believe and how we should live. We need to test everything against Scripture. We also need to ask God to help us understand Scripture, to reveal Himself to us through the Bible, and to help us live according to His Word.

Ordinary people can understand the Bible. We don't have to rely on experts or church officials. The basic principles are simple enough for a child to understand. But the Bible is so rich that a brilliant scholar can spend a lifetime studying it and still not understand everything in it.

I believe that every Christian can have a personal relationship with God. We all have direct access to Him. We don't have to rely on professionals, church officials, and other special people.

I believe in the Atonement. Jesus died to save us from our sins. I believe in the Resurrection. Jesus literally rose from the dead and He now has a glorified body. He is in Heaven with the Father, and He is interceding for us. I believe in the Second Coming. Jesus will come back again.

I believe that at the end of all things, we will all stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:10; John 5:22; Romans 14:10) Talking about judgment is not popular these days, but it's in the Bible. When Judgment Day comes, we will want to be numbered with the Redeemed, the Saved, those whose sins have been forgiven. Even then, our works will be tested by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

I believe in the Trinity. There is only one God. But there is the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Incarnation. Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man. Jesus was miraculously conceived by God. Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was born.

I don't understand how this works. But even the Apostle Paul had things that he didn't understand. Paul often spoke about mysteries that are beyond our understanding.

Even in the physical world, there are many things which we can't understand. According to the laws of aerodynamics, hummingbirds and bumble bees should not be able to fly. But they do. Scientists are studying them in hopes of gaining new understanding about aerodynamics, and developing new forms of aircraft. There is an animal called a platypus which is warm blooded, lays eggs, and nurses its babies. It looks and acts like a cross between a mammal and a lizard. Everything is made of atoms. Atoms have a nucleus of protons and neutrons, and there are electrons that go around the nucleus. The protons are positive. Neutrons are magnetically neutral. And electrons are negative. Have you ever tried to take two magnets and hold the positive sides of them together? They push each other away. Yet here we have these protons all together in the nucleus of the atom. What holds them together? Scientists don't know.

Life is full of mysteries. The Trinity and the Incarnation are two of them.

The Atonement is another mystery. I believe that Jesus did it. The Bible gives me some understanding of why we desperately needed to have Him do it for us. But I cannot understand how He could love us enough to do it. How could Jesus love us so much that He was willing to be tortured to death for us? Especially when He knew that most people would not respond to Him and would not appropriate the salvation that He paid such a high price for. How could God the Father love us so much that he endured the agony of watching his beloved Son be crucified? God's love is beyond my comprehension.

I believe that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way that we can be saved. In the Garden of Gesthemane, Jesus prayed to the Father, begging His Father to spare Him from having to drink the cup of suffering. (Matthew 26:39; 26:42) If there was some other way to save us, don't you think that the Father would have told Jesus? Don't you think that Jesus and the Father both intensely wanted to find some other way to save us? But there was no other way. Jesus had to go through the indescribable agony of mocking, shame, abandonment, physical torture, and death in order to save us. And He was willing to do it for us.

If there was some other way, then why did Jesus suffer for us? If good works, or being nice, or sacraments, or devotion to Mary, or good intentions, or wearing the brown scapular, or non-Christian religions, or anything else would do the job, then Jesus didn't need to suffer for us. Nobody in their right mind would go through that kind of suffering if it wasn't absolutely necessary. And no loving father would allow their son to go through it if it could be avoided. There is no other way. That's why Jesus died for us.

I have a Biblical world view. I believe in a literal heaven and hell. I believe that the devil is real. I believe that angels and demons are real. And I believe that God intervenes in the lives of individuals and of nations in response to prayer. I believe that the healings and miracles and supernatural events of the Bible are real. They really happened. God did it then, and if He wants to, He can do it now. (If you want to see an example, read "God's Smuggler" by Brother Andrew. God supernaturally protected Brother Andrew when he was smuggling Bibles into Communist countries. I have also read and heard accounts of God supernaturally protecting modern Christians who were being persecuted.)

I live in America. Many people here no longer believe in a Biblical world view. It is interesting that two things are happening at the same time. Many modern Christians are abandoning their belief in the supernatural things which are described in the Bible. At the same time, belief in occult supernatural things is growing rapidly and is becoming more and more mainstream. Books, movies, and TV shows are full of it. Some colleges have courses in goddess worship, witchcraft, spell casting, and other occult things. The American military has Wiccan "chaplains".

But God can use all things, even the occult. I know a man who saw the movie "The Exorcist". He also read the book. It persuaded him that the devil is real. He decided that if the devil is real, then God must also be real. So he started reading the Bible to find out about God. This man eventually became a strong Christian.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: catholicscanttakeit; christian; excatholic; exnovice; exnun; formernovice; ooopsnotanun; phonytitle; poorlywrittenfiction
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To: BlueDragon

MUCH good wisdom in your post.

Thanks.


201 posted on 03/29/2008 8:15:30 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: right way right

Thanks for your thoughtful exhortation.


202 posted on 03/29/2008 8:16:17 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: wmfights

FWIW, I believe a big part of accusing those that disagree of being “hateful” is because there is a belief that defending the church is the same as defending one’s faith. We don’t come from the perspective that the church we attend has special powers over our salvation. It is a difference that I doubt we will ever be able to overcome.

= = =

INDEED.


203 posted on 03/29/2008 8:17:02 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Petronski

HOGWASH.

The difference in her status and that of being a nun, is, for all meaningful intents and purposes vis a vis the points in her narrative

WHOLESALE NEGLIGIBLE.

. . . except . . . of course . . . from the standpoint of rigid power mongering magicsterical bias.


204 posted on 03/29/2008 8:18:11 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: sandyeggo; Petronski

excellent post...thanks for the ping hon.


205 posted on 03/29/2008 8:32:16 PM PDT by cyborg (Nursing school, another marathon and a cherry on top)
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To: Quix
Thank you for your support.

I think I made the case well, that this Mary Ann wasn't necassarily lying.

Some might not be able to follow it, for I may have not been able to achieve clarity. Others may not be willing to accept it. But I'm stll waiting for a well considered and supported refutation.
The "lying" issue, and the refutation of that accusation, though perhaps only important as an academic exercise, still belongs in this discussion, even if she doesn't actually exist.
If indeed she does exist, then some people may yet owe her an apology.

But it's too late now. The thread is tired. I got distracted and caught up with one who complains much of other's hatreds, while dishing out consistently, petty hatreds himself.

Now, that one cannot but give me the wiseguy treatement, [continuing on another thread!] since I busted his position, and bested him also, at the witty retort game. Now that he's been wounded [by me] several times over, I'll find no "grace" there.

Live and learn, huh?

206 posted on 03/29/2008 9:29:23 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: right way right
The spirit of wht you are saying, is good.

I stand admonished.

207 posted on 03/29/2008 9:38:23 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: right way right
Thank you. I forgot to add that, and in context, sent this next note, being a bit worried I may have come across as being insincere
208 posted on 03/29/2008 9:41:48 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: BlueDragon; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Gamecock; wmfights; fortheDeclaration; ...
Grace can have many different wrappings . . . as can love.

Sometimes, God's greatest grace and gift to us is . . .

extreme suffering.

Many don't understand that.

I don't know of any who understand that . . . who have not thusly suffered greatly.

And, yet, God is NOT sadistic . . . regardless of our feelings and perspective.

This is boot camp.

This life is not about this life.

This life is being trained, taught, conditioned to rule and reign with Christ.

This life is but a foggy, fuzzy hint at true LIFE . . . and ETERNAL LIFE at that.

I can enjoy intense intellectual sparring more than a game of . . . volley ball or Chinese chess. That's due to many things--3,000+ hours of productive intense group process experience is a big contributor to that inclination.

In such groups, LIGHT AND LIFE tended to come out of the most intense and to an onlooker, perhaps, the most assaultive of exchanges. Of course, the heart attitude had to be right . . . and that IS easier to discern face to face.

But it was always such a joy after all the tears and fiercely strong and intense statements and protestations . . . to see light and healing dawn and growth; lasting growth occur in such a relatively short time. And, of course, some growth from such experiences was quite delayed but just as profound, deep and far reaching.

Then there are those who, like with Jesus . . . hated him because they knew that He knew what was in them. And some hated Him out of what was in them without such intellectual understanding of the dynamics going on. I've experienced lots of both kinds.

I don't know that the ebbs and flows of such exchanges hereon allow any to be prissy squeaky pure 100% of the time. But then, that's true in all exchanges everywhere, isn't it. We are all work in progress all the time. The best we can do is earnestly endeavor to do the loving thing; to cooperate with God conforming us to His image as best we can; including to make choices and do actions out of the best heart attitude toward God and others we can have at the time. And, there will always be plenty of room for some to misunderstand.

And, some make it a life work to persistently misconstrue and misunderstand as a red badge of justification in spewing the hurt and poison that's been there their lifelong from early neglect and/or traumas real and imagined.

One can try and keep knocking them off balance and upside the head with emotional and intellectual 2 X 4's in the sometimes realistic hope (but far from certainty) that sooner or later, amidst their discombobilations, Holy Spirit will slip some startling insights in amidst the cracks in their facade; the cracks in their constructions on reality.

Most of us make little growth when we perceive that we are in successful in maintaining a death grip on what we view as an accurate construction on reality.

We tend to make the most growth when we have been shaken to our bone marrow and forced to re-examine all our assumptions, perceptions, constructions on reality inside/out; top/bottom. Many Christians are terrified of that.

But who was it said . . . the unexamined life is not worth living . . . not a Christian, as I recall. That's not entirely correct but it has some usefulness to it.

It seems to me that throughout the Old Testament . . . God had to upset even His favorite servants apple carts if not their whole situation to get them to return to a vibrant, sensitive, tuned-in dialogue and RELATIONSHIP with HIM.

Toooooo often even HIS ordered habits, rules, customs . . . etc. began to be an idolized SUBSTITUTE for RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM . . . as Oral might say--IN THE NOW.

It happens in all groups. And it has always been the worst in the oldest groups.

And those are the very groups most resistant to seeing anything amiss in their mirrors--those who have any mirrors left unshattered, at all.

Thankfully . . . though it will entail much trauma . . . and no small amount of suffering . . . God is on the brink of upsetting virtually everyone's apple carts and certainly much of their constructions on reality--especially their ASSUMPTIONS vs trusting emphatically in HIS WORD--AND THAT WITHOUT boxing HIS WORD into their tidy little preconceived notions about what HIS WORD meant/means.

He WILL HAVE a tried people; a spotless people; a people who put HIM FIRST, FOREMOST--FIRST, MIDDLE, LAST, ALWAYS IN ALL RESPECTS . . . .

There will be no also-rans; hangers-on; wannabe's; humanly lauded etc. individuals interloping on HIS GLORY to the least degree. NONE. Not a shred. Not a sub-atomic particle's worth. NONE.

I saw the Lord, high and lifted up and His train filled the temple . . . the only fitting response . . . I am a man of unclean lips . . . the prophet said.

There is no comparison for such an experience. And once one has had anything close to such an experience, there is NO QUESTION about foisting anyone or anything even remotely close to horning in on God's glory REGARDLESS OF ANY rationalizations; ANY degree of rubber Bibles; ANY degree of rubber histories . . . any degree of any foolish notions and assumptions about such things. All such is just instantly burned to ashes, to nothing . . . in the fierceness of HIS GLORY.

There's no explaining such adequately in words. But once one knows it, has experienced it . . . no words to the contrary will ever win-out over the truth of it ever again.

There's a lot of foolishness gets postulated on behalf of the RC edifice on a number of issues. Some such are put forward in the most outrageous UNBiblical, UNhistorical terms and in the most fierce ways remotely possible and still be remotely allowed on such a forum. But from the proponents' perspectives, such are merely relatively mild assertions of their sacred doctrines and doctrines--when in fact, they are gilding their sacred cows with fool's gold.

Certainly the lurkers deserve just as vivid a demonstration of another perspective. They deserve AS forceful a declaration of the foolishness of such positions, postulations pontifications as the outrageous assertion was to begin with. If the RC's want to avoid such 'fierce declarations' from me . . . such fierce satire etc. . . . I'd guesstimate that ???93-98+%??? of the time, all they have to do is avoid making such outrageous assertions to begin with.

A relatively small percentage of the time, I'm inclined to use fierce satire anyway just because it's the clearest, simplest, easiest, most effective way to highlight truth for the lurkers.

Anyway--this is life. And God hates luke-warm Christians--at least He hates their luke-warmness. I respect folks who are fierce proponents of their positions. I'd much prefer that they be fierce proponents of MUCH MORE BIBLICAL and historically accurate constructions on reality--but at least they aren't luke warm. That's a big plus.

Anyway--I much appreciate your posts. Thanks tons. Please put me on any ping list you have about such things.

Blessings,

209 posted on 03/29/2008 10:09:45 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: dan1123
In my opinion, people who hold these views are not Christians but secular humanists playing priest/pastor and trying to indoctrinate the faithful against Christianity.

Exactly. Catholics don't have a monopoly on these kinds of leaders by any means. Indeed, the Church is working actively to weed them out and replace them with good and faithful priests who actually believe in Christ and preach his Gospel without fear.

The same can not be said about the mainstream Protestant groups which have openly embraced such thinking.
210 posted on 03/29/2008 10:16:51 PM PDT by Antoninus (Tell us how you came to Barack?)
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To: Quix; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Alex Murphy; irishtenor; Gamecock; blue-duncan; ...
This life is being trained, taught, conditioned to rule and reign with Christ.

AMEN, Q! That sounds like a line from OrthodoxPresbyterian's homepage (before he was banned - phooey.)

As is so often the case, one question leads to another. I started to search the net for OP's exact quote, but instead found this really lovely essay which I hope you'll read. There's a lot of truth in it. Here the author is quoting Warfield...

THE PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS OF CALVINISM

B. B. Warfield describes Calvinism as "that sight of the majesty of God that pervades all of life and all of experience...It (Calvinism) lies then, let me repeat, in a profound apprehension of God in His majesty, with the poignant realisation which inevitably accompanies this apprehension, of the relation sustained to God by the creature as such, and particularly by the sinful creature. The Calvinist is the man who has seen God, and who, having seen God in His glory, is filled on the one hand with a sense of his own unworthiness to stand in God’s sight as a creature, and much more as a sinner, and on the other hand, with adoring wonder that nevertheless this God is a God who receives sinners. He who believes in God without reserve and is determined that God shall be God to him in all his thinking, feeling and willing — in the entire compass of his life activities, intellectual, moral and spiritual — throughout all his individual social and religious relations, is, by force of that strictest of all logic which presides over the outworking of principles into thought and life, by the very necessity of the case, a Calvinist..."

211 posted on 03/29/2008 10:57:38 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Alex Murphy; irishtenor; blue-duncan
B. B. Warfield describes Calvinism as "that sight of the majesty of God that pervades all of life and all of experience

Amen Doc.

B.B. not only clung to the intellectual aspect of you quote, but lived it as well. Just reading about the love he showed to his invalid wife is a moving experience.

212 posted on 03/30/2008 5:31:15 AM PDT by Gamecock (Viva La Reformacion!)
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To: cyborg

You’re welcome babe.

It’s an interesting view inside the minds of those who would engage in all manner of contortions, pretensions and legalisms, desperate to support a lie by a fictional person, all in the name of slamming the Catholic Church, Christ’s own.

Their behavior should be in textbooks.


213 posted on 03/30/2008 5:46:10 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
THE PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS OF CALVINISM

Traditions of Men

214 posted on 03/30/2008 6:02:36 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks for your caring response.

I read the quote.

Appreciate ;your kind words.


215 posted on 03/30/2008 6:32:56 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Petronski

I’m convinced the woman is real and that her narrative is real.

It does not read like fiction.

Am a bit curious . . . how much has your life’s work involved listening to and discerning the truths and fictions in an individual interviewee’s narrative . . . and helping them overcome the fictions and maximize God’s truths in their lives?

Her narrative reads, to me . . . like every word is absolutely true.


216 posted on 03/30/2008 6:36:00 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Oh, my. And here I thought the cross was about Christ humbling Himself for us.

Dear Sister, we are to imitate Christ in His humility for the good of others.

Even If that means laying one'e life down to follow what God has willed for our lives.

The Glory always goes to Christ for those who are willing to suffer for the good of others.

217 posted on 03/30/2008 6:37:36 AM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: Quix
I’m convinced the woman is real and that her narrative is real.

It serves your purpose, of course you'd say that.

218 posted on 03/30/2008 6:38:10 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Corrected post

Oh, my. And here I thought the cross was about Christ humbling Himself for us.

Dear Sister, we are to imitate Christ in His humility for the good of others.

Even If that means laying one's life down to follow what God has willed for our lives.

The Glory ALWAYS goes to Christ for those who are willing to suffer for the good of others.

219 posted on 03/30/2008 6:40:48 AM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi; Alex Murphy; alpha-8-25-02; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...
The Glory ALWAYS goes to Christ for those who are willing to suffer for the good of others.

REALLY?

ALWAYS?

Then what are the thousands of MORE--the vastly greater number of lines written glorfying Magnificent Magical Earth-Mother Mary with nary a mention of Jesus in the vast majority of such paragraphs, much less such lines??? Hint--the lines are NOT Protty's imaginations.

They are RC edifice demonstration of a focus, emphais, attention that in every way appears to be idolatrous and blasphemous.

And when the truth of that is well articulated, the dust in the air responses and the fierceness with which the dust is thrown in the air . . . equals further proof that the focus is idolatrous and blasphemous.

IF said focus were not sooooo idolatrous and blasphemous, the vast majority, if not all, the responses would be more along the lines of "You Prottys are simply mistaken and wrong. Y'all think gilded altars are worldly ostentacious excess and we think they are worshipful. Big deal."

Instead, it's persistent foaming at the fingers; outrage, appoplexy, sitting on the abuse button, . . . fierce indignation, rending of self-righteous idol-worshipping robes . . . because someone's sacred cow was gored.

All of which vividly affirms to me all the more the great importance in insuring that all the sacred cows GET GORED.

I want none left bellowing when THE KING RETURNS.

Not in my life nor the lives of those I care for

220 posted on 03/30/2008 6:55:45 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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