Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
You wrote:
“Lol. You’re spineless.”
No, spineless would be to claim you mis-spoke when you really just couldn’t defend your argument.
Oh, wait...
All I hear is blah blah blah.
FDR had eyewitness accounts:
Former Mayor Ed Koch and Polish dignitaries honored the life of Jan Karski before a crowd of about 150 who gathered on Poland's Independence Day.
Karski, a Catholic member of the Polish Underground, repeatedly risked his life and was imprisoned and tortured as he tried to inform the world about the Jewish genocide occurring in the Nazi concentration camps.
"He tried desperately to save the Jews in Europe, and, unfortunately, FDR didn't listen," said Koch. "It was sad because we're reflecting on the deaths of about 6million Jews, and joyous because we're reflecting on the glory of a hero."
You wrote:
“You’re being baited, vladimir.”
Oh, I know. Same old, same old.
You wrote:
“All I hear is blah blah blah.”
Then stop listening to yourself.
“Are you comparing people in the pews to an armed force?”
No, we were speaking of intelligence, knowledge of what was transpiring in the localities so proper action and plans could be made.
FDR was an anti-semite. He could have cared less about the holocaust or the Jews, IMHO.
You wrote:
“I do not believe the U.S. had the same “malevolent intent” some people assign to Pacelli for the glaring reason that the blood of 400,000 Americans was shed on foreign soil to undo much of the evil Pacelli and men like him facilitated.”
That’s completely off the wall.
1) Pius XII wasn’t even pope until 6 years after Hitler came to power.
2) Whether Hitler murdered Jews or not we would have fought him simply because he declared war on us.
3) The US really didn’t care that much what happened to millions of East Europena Jews. Sad, but true.
“While hundreds of thousands of Americans were dying in Europe and Japan, Pius XII still managed to dine well and sleep peacefully.”
No, actually while the US was fighting a war against Hitler (because he declared war on us and ONLY because he declared war on us) Pius XII was saving more than 800,000 Jews, including thousands in Rome itself and in his home whom he fed, clothed and protected. Pius XII even insisted that the Jewish refugees be fed kosher food! If he slept well it was the sleep of those with a clear conscience.
While American soldiers were fighting the Nazis, Pius XII was targeted by Hitler for kidnapping or assassination. And yet he had no great army to defend him! I think Gor and the prayers of the faithful protected Pius XII. Hitler hated him, wanted to kill him and could easily have done so, but Pius XII survived to aid even more people after the Nazis were chased out of Rome.
Let me get this straight....
Catholics, in an effort to justify the evil actions of their leadership, have simply taken to attacking America and past Presidents during WWII.
Kinda funny in a way if it wasn’t so sad. In some ways it is like the liberal cries against our efforts in Iraq today.
I think all here agree that more could have been done by all churches, but that isn’t what’s under discussion, is it? The discussion has been focused recently on the actions/failures of a single person, Pacelli/Pius XII.
Some of the condemnations being advanced on this thread and others on FR about Pacelli/Pius XII are:
That assassination of his character did not start until after his death (and there is evidence that the initiation of this effort was aided by the Soviets). It is also noted that those here who are so quick to throw stones at Pacelli/Pius XII have yet to detail the actions of the leaders of their own denomination to save the Jews.
Those here who are defending the reputation of Pacelli/Pius XII are not saying that his actions were perfect or that he could not have done more, based on 20/20 hindsight, but rather that he is not guilty of the bullet points above. The facts presented here and in other threads are on our side.
So, here is chance for you to stand up, WM. Are you going to stand on the side of Christian charity or are you going to stand with the stone throwers who are out to destroy the reputation of a man?
Nope, you got it crooked.
You wrote:
“Let me get this straight....”
Oh, here we go...
“Catholics, in an effort to justify the evil actions of their leadership,...”
We have not tried to justify anyone’s evil actions. What evil actions have we tried to justify.
“... have simply taken to attacking America and past Presidents during WWII.”
So you mean there is nothing wrong with presidents of the past? You mean Kennedy wasn’t a whoremonger, none of the presidents were racist and members of the klan, none of the presidents were anti-semitic and FDR didn’t drop the ball when refusing Jews refuge in the US when fleeing Hitler’s rule? Huh. You seem to have a very rosy glasses sort of view of American history. I don’t.
“Kinda funny in a way if it wasn’t so sad. In some ways it is like the liberal cries against our efforts in Iraq today.”
No, actually it isn’t like that at all. For one thing, the liberals want us to lose in Iraq. No Catholic here is pining away wishing the US had lost WWII. Second, if someone, anyone, wants to say that American efforts in Iraq, although often amazingly heroic on the part of the individual grunt’s part has been seriously mishandled in one way or another, he may have a point. Do you think the war has been handled perfectly on all levels and in every way since the beginning? If you do, then you have no clue. Mistakes have been made. They always are in wartime. The difference is this: America was tainted by anti-semitism in the WWII era. Everyone knows this is true. FDR could have done so much more to aid Jews, and didn’t. Why not? Was it because he was evil? I doubt it. Was it because he was anti-semitic? Doubtful. But he could have done more - at least in hindsight. He probably believed he was doing the best he could under the circumstances. I think a similar argument can be made for Pius XII. He could have done more - in hindsight. But at the time he was doing everything he apparently believed he could do. He was feeding and caring for Jews (with kosher food no less) in his own household! He saved up to 860,000 Jews at one time or another according to the Israeli historian, and rabbi, Pinchas Lapide. How many did FDR save? Is that even a fair question? No, not really.
***You seem to have a very rosy glasses sort of view of American history. I don’t.***
Not at all. Pressure is on you because of the actions of your past leaders. Quick, start talking bad about American Presidents.
Sounds like my kids: But he did it, too.
And, yes, that is a form of justification.
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