Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Dr. E: Then you disobey Christ. "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." -- Mark 16:15
Cherry-picking verse won't get you anywhere. Let's lok at the context of Mark 16:
And in Matthew 28:
Both versions state very clearly that there were the eleven remaining disciples and that He addressed specifically them, not everybody who wants to preach.
And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. " -- Luke 9:59-60
So? Did Christ not say "follow Me?" He said the same to His disciples. He never authorized the crowds to preach, nor any self-styled preacher.
They did. It happens all the time. Seems to me this is the first time you are becoming aware of this. :)
Of the eleven who stayed with Him, some doubted Him even until the Great Commission. [Mat 28:17]
Obviously Jesus would have known that, and yet Jesus did NOTHING to correct this grievous error (that HE furthered by assenting to it). I don't see how that is possible, but it certainly IS misleading
God has His own ways, and they are not mine or yours, FK. He actually did do something about that that was even more effective than telling them the truth right there and then.
Not too long afterwords, after He was gone, the same disciples were converted to believers and were martyred for that faith—certainly something more than most of us are willing to do.
It all happens in due time, at God's own pace.
Oh you said it so well, Kolo. Bibliolatry and lack of biblical historical/cultural context rule supreme in some distant corners, on the margins of Christianity.
It's not that we become Divine,it's that God uses our Human nature to accomplish His Will.
We see this in the lives of the the Saints in the Miracles God works through them.Some examples are..Saint John Chrysostom, Irenaues, Padre Pio,Aquinas etc...
These miracles are physical heeling's, miracles of virtue and intellectual miracles -when the Holy Spirit enlightens the human mind
Of course we cannot provide a miracle,only God can do this and use our human nature if He wants. Thus we are sharing in this by God using our human nature and being “divinized” like the energizer bunny is being energized(sorry if this is a bad analogy,it's all me pea brain could think of)
Of course we cannot ever become Divine though.
Here is what the Catechism says...
CCC 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.
I would like to add a Eucharistic example from Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint John Chrysostom....
“Material food first changes into the one who eats it, and then, as a consequence, restores to him lost strength and increases his vitality. Spiritual food, on the other hand, changes the person who eats it into itself. Thus the effect proper to this Sacrament is the conversion of a man into Christ, so that he may no longer live, but Christ lives in him; consequently, it has the double effect of restoring the spiritual strength he had lost by his sins and defects, and of increasing the strength of his virtues.” St. Thomas, Commentary on Book IV of the Sentences, d.12, q.2, a.11
“How many in these times say: would that I could gaze upon His form, His figure, His garment, His shoes! Lo! Thou seest Him, touchest Him, eatest Him. He gives Himself to thee, not merely to look upon, but even to touch, to eat, and to receive within... Consider at whose table thou eatest! For we are fed with that which the angels view with trepidation and which they cannot contemplate without fear because of Its splendor. We become one with Him: we become one Body and one Flesh with Christ.”... “Jesus, for the burning love He bore us, wished to unite Himself so closely to us that we should become one and the same with Him for such is the dream of true lovers.”... “Holy Communion makes us eager for virtue and prompt to practice it, at the same time imparting deep peace, and thus rendering sweet and easy the road to holiness.” -Saint John Chrysostom
You’ve missed Kosta’s point. Your comment about “sharers in the divine nature” is classic Latin theology and is a product of what we believe to be the false concept of created grace which marks a divide between Orthodoxy and the Latin Church in a whole host of areas but it pops up most usually in sacramental theology and popular concepts of indulgences and purgatory. Until the Middle Ages and before the Great Schism, The Church NEVER EVER taught that we become sharers in the divine nature. Indeed the consensus patrum taught quite the opposite. +Gregory Palamas struggled with this Western innovation and expressed the belief of The Church well thusly:
“Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostases. As we have seen, those privileged to be united to God so as to become one spirit with Him - as St. Paul said, ‘He who cleaves to the Lord is one spirit with Him’ are not united to God with respect to His essence, since all theologians testify that with respect to His essence God suffers no participation.
Moreover, the hypostatic union is fulfilled only in the case of the Logos, the God-man.
Thus those privileged to attain union with God are united to Him with respect to His energy; and the ‘spirit’, according to which they who cleave to God are one with Him, is and is called the uncreated energy of the Holy Spirit, but not the essence of God.”
What the West translates as “nature” is the Greek word “ousia” which in the above quote is translated as “essence”. The implications of what you have written are potentially devastating to our shared Christian theology.
You’ve explained it, but it still doesn’t make sense or have theological proofs.
For one thing, it should make sense given that the Spirit is clearly defined many times as a SEAL. A seal by God is unbreakable by anyone unworthy, as the Book of Revelation tells us. Therefore, we can surmise that none of us is worthy to break such a seal. Yet, Apostolics say that any man can break God's seal with simple disobedience. That doesn't match scripture. In addition, we have these (among others):
1 Peter 1:3-9 : 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Phil 1:4-6 : 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
John 10:28-29 : 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 11:28-29 : 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
These sound pretty solid to me.
FK: ***No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God.***
Hold on now. I have been told here on FR by a number of the Reformed that they are most definitely of the elect and therefore are going to Heaven and there’s nothing that anyone can do about that. Is this a different branch of Reformed theology?
No. :) Those same Reformed will tell you the same as I will. We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it. We cannot know who the whole group of the elect is. Therefore, vis-a-vis US as individuals, the whole rest of the world is a mission field. So, while I am sure about myself, I cannot be "as sure" about my own beautiful bride, although I really, really, really, really, really "think" she is of the elect. :) I would also guess that the Pope is among the elect, although I can't be sure because I can't KNOW his heart. I can only KNOW my heart. This is what I think the "Judge not" passage is really all about.
FK: ***Actions do matter.***
How?
Because God requires that things actually happen within time. We could not be saved if God only supposed that Jesus die on the cross. It had to actually happen for it to be real and "count". It is the same for belief (for you baptism) within time for salvation. It's not theoretical, it has to really happen. Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter.
In addition, consider works. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Very true. Therefore, works done within time DO matter. You and I disagree on the surrounding mechanics and such, but I think we agree that works matter.
FK: ***God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose, such as at the crucifixion.***
How were people used to fulfill His purpose at the crucifixion? I thought that Christ Himself was crucified. I guess I’m not understanding this. Could you clarify please?
Sure. We start with the premise that God wanted to save His elect, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the method by which this could be accomplished. From there it would take great sin to put an innocent man to death. So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others. All were necessary for this to take place exactly as God wanted it. So God withdrew from them more so than other lost people, and left them to the nature they were born with, a nature that hates God. God had no duty to maintain them, so He withdrew from them in order to use them to fulfill His plan. God's love was so strong that He was determined to save His elect, and so in this way nothing was left to chance.
FK: ***Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved.***
A strange belief indeed. I’m not aware of anyone who believes this.
That's good. Then could you explain that if God does not interfere with anyone's free will, how was the crucifixion not a matter of chance? God's foreknowledge is no answer since, by definition, He would already be an active part of any such foreknowledge. OR, IF foreknowledge is your answer could you explain some of the mechanics of how it works? For example, did God "wait" for conditions to be "just so" before He decided to send Jesus to earth? If so, then it would still be a matter of chance.
“”What the West translates as “nature” is the Greek word “ousia” which in the above quote is translated as “essence”.””
Please forgive my ignorance on this ,but it seems like a translation error rather than what the west actually teaches.
I came across this article ,which I thought was pretty good
http://www.antiochian.org/node/16916
***For one thing, it should make sense given that the Spirit is clearly defined many times as a SEAL. A seal by God is unbreakable by anyone unworthy, as the Book of Revelation tells us.***
A seal in Biblical times is a mark or sign. It is not a lock.
http://sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd325.htm says that:
Seal: Commonly a ring engraved with some device (Gen 38:18, Gen 38:25). Jezebel “wrote letters in Ahab’s name, and sealed them with his seal” (Kg1 21:8). Seals are frequently mentioned in Jewish history (Deu 32:34; Neh 9:38; Neh 10:1; Est 3:12; Sol 8:6; Isa 8:16; Jer 22:24; Jer 32:44, etc.). Sealing a document was equivalent to the signature of the owner of the seal. “The use of a signet-ring by the monarch has recently received a remarkable illustration by the discovery of an impression of such a signet on fine clay at Koyunjik, the site of the ancient Nineveh. This seal appears to have been impressed from the bezel of a metallic finger-ring. It is an oval, 2 inches in length by 1 inch wide, and bears the image, name, and titles of the Egyptian king Sabaco” (Rawlinson’s Hist. Illus. of the O.T., p. 46). The actual signet-rings of two Egyptian kings (Cheops and Horus) have been discovered. (See SIGNET.) The use of seals is mentioned in the New Testament only in connection with the record of our Lord’s burial (Mat 27:66). The tomb was sealed by the Pharisees and chief priests for the purpose of making sure that the disciples would not come and steal the body away (Mat 27:63, Mat 27:64). The mode of doing this was probably by stretching a cord across the stone and sealing it at both ends with sealing-clay. When God is said to have sealed the Redeemer, the meaning is, that he has attested his divine mission (Joh 6:27). Circumcision is a seal, an attestation of the covenant (Rom 4:11). Believers are sealed with the Spirit, as God’s mark put upon them (Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30). Converts are by Paul styled the seal of his apostleship, i.e., they are its attestation (Co1 9:2). Seals and sealing are frequently mentioned in the book of Revelation (Rev 5:1; Rev 6:1; Rev 7:3; Rev 10:4; Rev 22:10).
Now for your quotes:
***4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ***
Note the term “trials”. A trial is a test in which one passes or fails. God offers His gift of salvation to all. If you are proved genuine, then you receive His gift. If you fail you don’t. God’s gifts are irrevocable. Our acceptance of them isn’t. The grace which He gives us is not withdrawn. We can reject it, though.
All the Apostles speak of may and hope. They speak of God’s mercy and forgiveness. You cannot forgive the unrepentant. The stiff necked Reformed who believe that they can do no wrong since they are led by the Holy Spirit do not demonstrate repentence; they demonstrate its opposite.
***We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it.***
How do you know? I can speak to my blood type and demonstrate my heart rate and show my blood pressure. That is knowledge. I believe and hope that I will be saved.
The Judgement occurs after death; therefore my salvation cannot be assured now since I am still alive as I post these words. I can pick up a gun and kill a school room full of kids tomorrow, regardless of the state of my soul today.
***We cannot know who the whole group of the elect is. Therefore, vis-a-vis US as individuals, the whole rest of the world is a mission field. So, while I am sure about myself, I cannot be “as sure” about my own beautiful bride, although I really, really, really, really, really “think” she is of the elect. :)***
Interesting. The good Reformed Dr. E. posted some months back that she knew that her children were all saved with the same knowledge that she had about her own salvation. Would either of you care to comment about that post and how to reconcile it with this one that I am responding to?
***FK: ***Actions do matter.***
How?
Because God requires that things actually happen within time. We could not be saved if God only supposed that Jesus die on the cross. It had to actually happen for it to be real and “count”. It is the same for belief (for you baptism) within time for salvation. It’s not theoretical, it has to really happen. Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter.
In addition, consider works. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Very true. Therefore, works done within time DO matter.***
Let’s step away from the Crucifixion for now, please. Let us concentrate on you and me as individuals. Our church calls for volunteers for the soup kitchen that Friday night. Does it matter in a Reformed way if you or I serve the poor? It most certainly does according to original Christian and current Catholic belief.
Whatsoever you do to the least of my neighbours, that you do unto me.
The Corporal Works of Mercy
1 Feed the Hungry
2 Give drink to the thirsty
3 Clothe the naked
4 Shelter the homeless
5 Comfort the imprisoned
6 Visit the sick
7 Bury the dead
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
1 Admonish sinners
2 Instruct the uninformed
3 Counsel the doubtful
4 Comfort the sorrowful
5 Be patient with those in error
6 Forgive offenses
7 Pray for the living and the dead
Yes, our actions shall be Judged. And I for one, am darned sure going to be Judged pretty harshly, now that I read this list once again...
***We start with the premise that God wanted to save His elect, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the method by which this could be accomplished. From there it would take great sin to put an innocent man to death. ***
FK, it happens every day on Earth in every city and in every jurisdiction. I spent 10 glorious years in Dearborn, Michigan, which borders on two sides with Detroit. Every day innocents were killed and raped and beaten and mugged. I agree that it takes great sin; I disagree that it is remarkable now (or then) to kill an innocent man (remember that you brought up the term innocent MAN).
***So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others.***
Not so fast, my friend. According to Reformed theology, God was never with them since they were obviously of the unelect and were all doomed to hell, right? So how could He withdraw from them?
***All were necessary for this to take place exactly as God wanted it. So God withdrew from them more so than other lost people, and left them to the nature they were born with, a nature that hates God.***
Are you saying that God withdraws from people in stages or different amounts? What in Calvin are you talking about? I thought that the Reformed unelect were deprived completely of God (or rather never had Him) and that the elect were full of Him. This is getting rather interesting.
***God had no duty to maintain them, so He withdrew from them in order to use them to fulfill His plan. God’s love was so strong that He was determined to save His elect, and so in this way nothing was left to chance.***
The Reformed God’s love for the elect must only be exceeded by His hate for the unelect.
***Then could you explain that if God does not interfere with anyone’s free will, how was the crucifixion not a matter of chance?***
God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.
1 Cor 15:
3
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
5
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8
Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
Jesus died to pay the ransom for our sins. Interesting, and I thank you for the opportunity to discuss with you - I am always finding something that I have either forgotten or overlooked - please note verse 5.
Paul says that Jesus appeared first to Cephas before any other. That darn Cephas, always first among equals in following Christ. No wonder you guys don’t think much of him. :)
*** For example, did God “wait” for conditions to be “just so” before He decided to send Jesus to earth?***
God waited until conditions were right before He sent the flood. He waited until conditions were right to create the tongues at the Tower of Babel. He parted the Red Sea at the right moment. He stopped the Earth from spinning until the Isrealites won. He sent His Son to be crucified when the conditions were right. Not chance.
It seems you contradict yourself ,Dear Brother. Do you remember this series of posts we had.....
From post #4911 FK said -However, if He wanted you to prevent a mugging at the nudie bar, then you're going.""
...... The whole scenario you posted has God pushing the button for sin.
I stand by what I said. The distinction I am making is "action" verses "reaction". Pushing a button is "action". When a particular act is needed that is good, God "pushes a button" and the thing happens. It is God working through us. He is doing the good, and is the author, since He IS good.
It does not work like that for sin. God does not sin through us, since He IS good. Vis-a-vis God, sin is our REACTION to circumstances, our evil desires, whatever. We are responsible for our sin so there is no button-pushing by God here that authors the sin. God remains IN CONTROL, meaning all in His plan is accomplished. But, He does NOT author sin since He does not instill it in anyone and He does not "work through" a person to sin.
When we boil it all down, it comes down to the Apostolic view being that man is in control, OTHERWISE, God sins. This requires a very weak God, but it seems a small price to pay for man being in control, for man's sovereignty. The Reformed reject this view and see a powerful God who IS in control. We do not believe this requires God to sin. There IS a way for God to be in full control AND for man to be responsible for his own sin.
God does not need the nudie bar,the mugger or the person going to the nudie bar to accomplish goodness,Dear Brother.
There would not be a mugging in the first place if there was no nudie bar. That would be God's will!
To say that God planned and pushed a button is ridiculous!
As I said before....God would not want the nudie bar in the first place.
I thought God is in control of your life. Are you now saying He is not?
God is in control. The term "God's word" refers to His specific revelation to us in the Bible. It is infallible. I am not infallible since I make mitakes. :) God allows me to make my mistakes, ultimately for my good. Other mistakes I would have otherwise made, He disallows to happen for His own reasons and for my good. So, God remains in control.
FK: "We know that it came from God if it is in the Bible."
Kosta: And how do we know that?
FK: The Bible claims it is from God
Kosta: Oh, boy, if I have ever seen circular reasoning! This one is a keeper, Forest Keeper! :)
You don't work for NBC do you? :) You edited my statement to make it look like that's all I said. My answer was:
The Bible claims it is from God, and internal/external tests show that it is. Ultimately, Holy Spirit confirms God's word for us so that we can know it.
It is important that the Bible makes its claim, but that is not enough alone. God speaks to us through the Bible and His sheep will recognize and follow His voice.
“Please forgive my ignorance on this ,but it seems like a translation error rather than what the west actually teaches.”
Sadly, it is not a translation mistake. The West quite positively has taught that man can share in the divine nature.
This still does not mean we become Divine,it means God uses the human nature of the humble.
The eastern fathers wrote things like this...
“Man has been ordered to become God.”- Gregory of Nazianzus
“From the Holy Spirit is the likeness of God, and the highest thing to be desired, to become God.”- Saint Basil the Great
“If the Word is made man, it is that man might become gods.” -Saint Irenaues
If taken out of context than one would believe that man can become God.
Sharing in Divine nature is no different if taken out of context to make one think we are God.
There can be too much religious pride on both sides regarding any of this!
I want no part in that pride!
We both agree that Christ uses the humble and the lowly.
That's enough for me!
I wish you both a Blessed Evening.
Sharing in the divine nature is something that is possible only for the Three Hypostases of the Holy Trinity.
That's your opinion, FK. I could think of hundreds of examples where that is not necessarily true, and where people made mistakes to their perdition.
You don't work for NBC do you? :) You edited my statement to make it look like that's all I said.
The part I left out was non-essential. Your circular reasoning was still there. The rest was conjecture.
God speaks to us through the Bible and His sheep will recognize and follow His voice
There you go again. :)
Yeah, I am curious too! :)
A seal was broken by Adam and Eve, and every human being ever since. The Jews kept breaking God's Covenant unceasingly in the OT times.
Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter
How do you know that God wants you to witness? The Great Commission was given to the eleven. And no one else. He gave the "keys" to the disciples and no one else. And they passed it on to others of their choice, and they of theirs, and so on in succession until this day.
If He addressed anyone in particular with such a request, it was never a crowd, but a specific individual. "Follow me" He would say to the person in question.
You are not being honest again, Mark. I have never said any of us can be sure of anyone's salvation other than our own. And I've made that statement dozens of times.
Further, I said I have a reasonable faith that my children are saved...
1) because God gave them to me in the first place and
2) because Scripture tells us...
"For the promise is unto you, and to you and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." - Acts 2:39
But I also acknowledged God may choose to give anyone He wants a devil child. It's His call.
My job is to raise my children to kneel to none but Christ, and thus I have confidence that God will take care of the rest.
Let's agree that you won't speak for me and I won't speak for you.
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