You’ve explained it, but it still doesn’t make sense or have theological proofs.
For one thing, it should make sense given that the Spirit is clearly defined many times as a SEAL. A seal by God is unbreakable by anyone unworthy, as the Book of Revelation tells us. Therefore, we can surmise that none of us is worthy to break such a seal. Yet, Apostolics say that any man can break God's seal with simple disobedience. That doesn't match scripture. In addition, we have these (among others):
1 Peter 1:3-9 : 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Phil 1:4-6 : 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
John 10:28-29 : 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 11:28-29 : 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
These sound pretty solid to me.
FK: ***No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God.***
Hold on now. I have been told here on FR by a number of the Reformed that they are most definitely of the elect and therefore are going to Heaven and there’s nothing that anyone can do about that. Is this a different branch of Reformed theology?
No. :) Those same Reformed will tell you the same as I will. We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it. We cannot know who the whole group of the elect is. Therefore, vis-a-vis US as individuals, the whole rest of the world is a mission field. So, while I am sure about myself, I cannot be "as sure" about my own beautiful bride, although I really, really, really, really, really "think" she is of the elect. :) I would also guess that the Pope is among the elect, although I can't be sure because I can't KNOW his heart. I can only KNOW my heart. This is what I think the "Judge not" passage is really all about.
FK: ***Actions do matter.***
How?
Because God requires that things actually happen within time. We could not be saved if God only supposed that Jesus die on the cross. It had to actually happen for it to be real and "count". It is the same for belief (for you baptism) within time for salvation. It's not theoretical, it has to really happen. Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter.
In addition, consider works. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Very true. Therefore, works done within time DO matter. You and I disagree on the surrounding mechanics and such, but I think we agree that works matter.
FK: ***God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose, such as at the crucifixion.***
How were people used to fulfill His purpose at the crucifixion? I thought that Christ Himself was crucified. I guess I’m not understanding this. Could you clarify please?
Sure. We start with the premise that God wanted to save His elect, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the method by which this could be accomplished. From there it would take great sin to put an innocent man to death. So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others. All were necessary for this to take place exactly as God wanted it. So God withdrew from them more so than other lost people, and left them to the nature they were born with, a nature that hates God. God had no duty to maintain them, so He withdrew from them in order to use them to fulfill His plan. God's love was so strong that He was determined to save His elect, and so in this way nothing was left to chance.
FK: ***Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved.***
A strange belief indeed. I’m not aware of anyone who believes this.
That's good. Then could you explain that if God does not interfere with anyone's free will, how was the crucifixion not a matter of chance? God's foreknowledge is no answer since, by definition, He would already be an active part of any such foreknowledge. OR, IF foreknowledge is your answer could you explain some of the mechanics of how it works? For example, did God "wait" for conditions to be "just so" before He decided to send Jesus to earth? If so, then it would still be a matter of chance.
***For one thing, it should make sense given that the Spirit is clearly defined many times as a SEAL. A seal by God is unbreakable by anyone unworthy, as the Book of Revelation tells us.***
A seal in Biblical times is a mark or sign. It is not a lock.
http://sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd325.htm says that:
Seal: Commonly a ring engraved with some device (Gen 38:18, Gen 38:25). Jezebel “wrote letters in Ahab’s name, and sealed them with his seal” (Kg1 21:8). Seals are frequently mentioned in Jewish history (Deu 32:34; Neh 9:38; Neh 10:1; Est 3:12; Sol 8:6; Isa 8:16; Jer 22:24; Jer 32:44, etc.). Sealing a document was equivalent to the signature of the owner of the seal. “The use of a signet-ring by the monarch has recently received a remarkable illustration by the discovery of an impression of such a signet on fine clay at Koyunjik, the site of the ancient Nineveh. This seal appears to have been impressed from the bezel of a metallic finger-ring. It is an oval, 2 inches in length by 1 inch wide, and bears the image, name, and titles of the Egyptian king Sabaco” (Rawlinson’s Hist. Illus. of the O.T., p. 46). The actual signet-rings of two Egyptian kings (Cheops and Horus) have been discovered. (See SIGNET.) The use of seals is mentioned in the New Testament only in connection with the record of our Lord’s burial (Mat 27:66). The tomb was sealed by the Pharisees and chief priests for the purpose of making sure that the disciples would not come and steal the body away (Mat 27:63, Mat 27:64). The mode of doing this was probably by stretching a cord across the stone and sealing it at both ends with sealing-clay. When God is said to have sealed the Redeemer, the meaning is, that he has attested his divine mission (Joh 6:27). Circumcision is a seal, an attestation of the covenant (Rom 4:11). Believers are sealed with the Spirit, as God’s mark put upon them (Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30). Converts are by Paul styled the seal of his apostleship, i.e., they are its attestation (Co1 9:2). Seals and sealing are frequently mentioned in the book of Revelation (Rev 5:1; Rev 6:1; Rev 7:3; Rev 10:4; Rev 22:10).
Now for your quotes:
***4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ***
Note the term “trials”. A trial is a test in which one passes or fails. God offers His gift of salvation to all. If you are proved genuine, then you receive His gift. If you fail you don’t. God’s gifts are irrevocable. Our acceptance of them isn’t. The grace which He gives us is not withdrawn. We can reject it, though.
All the Apostles speak of may and hope. They speak of God’s mercy and forgiveness. You cannot forgive the unrepentant. The stiff necked Reformed who believe that they can do no wrong since they are led by the Holy Spirit do not demonstrate repentence; they demonstrate its opposite.
***We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it.***
How do you know? I can speak to my blood type and demonstrate my heart rate and show my blood pressure. That is knowledge. I believe and hope that I will be saved.
The Judgement occurs after death; therefore my salvation cannot be assured now since I am still alive as I post these words. I can pick up a gun and kill a school room full of kids tomorrow, regardless of the state of my soul today.
***We cannot know who the whole group of the elect is. Therefore, vis-a-vis US as individuals, the whole rest of the world is a mission field. So, while I am sure about myself, I cannot be “as sure” about my own beautiful bride, although I really, really, really, really, really “think” she is of the elect. :)***
Interesting. The good Reformed Dr. E. posted some months back that she knew that her children were all saved with the same knowledge that she had about her own salvation. Would either of you care to comment about that post and how to reconcile it with this one that I am responding to?
***FK: ***Actions do matter.***
How?
Because God requires that things actually happen within time. We could not be saved if God only supposed that Jesus die on the cross. It had to actually happen for it to be real and “count”. It is the same for belief (for you baptism) within time for salvation. It’s not theoretical, it has to really happen. Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter.
In addition, consider works. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Very true. Therefore, works done within time DO matter.***
Let’s step away from the Crucifixion for now, please. Let us concentrate on you and me as individuals. Our church calls for volunteers for the soup kitchen that Friday night. Does it matter in a Reformed way if you or I serve the poor? It most certainly does according to original Christian and current Catholic belief.
Whatsoever you do to the least of my neighbours, that you do unto me.
The Corporal Works of Mercy
1 Feed the Hungry
2 Give drink to the thirsty
3 Clothe the naked
4 Shelter the homeless
5 Comfort the imprisoned
6 Visit the sick
7 Bury the dead
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
1 Admonish sinners
2 Instruct the uninformed
3 Counsel the doubtful
4 Comfort the sorrowful
5 Be patient with those in error
6 Forgive offenses
7 Pray for the living and the dead
Yes, our actions shall be Judged. And I for one, am darned sure going to be Judged pretty harshly, now that I read this list once again...
***We start with the premise that God wanted to save His elect, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the method by which this could be accomplished. From there it would take great sin to put an innocent man to death. ***
FK, it happens every day on Earth in every city and in every jurisdiction. I spent 10 glorious years in Dearborn, Michigan, which borders on two sides with Detroit. Every day innocents were killed and raped and beaten and mugged. I agree that it takes great sin; I disagree that it is remarkable now (or then) to kill an innocent man (remember that you brought up the term innocent MAN).
***So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others.***
Not so fast, my friend. According to Reformed theology, God was never with them since they were obviously of the unelect and were all doomed to hell, right? So how could He withdraw from them?
***All were necessary for this to take place exactly as God wanted it. So God withdrew from them more so than other lost people, and left them to the nature they were born with, a nature that hates God.***
Are you saying that God withdraws from people in stages or different amounts? What in Calvin are you talking about? I thought that the Reformed unelect were deprived completely of God (or rather never had Him) and that the elect were full of Him. This is getting rather interesting.
***God had no duty to maintain them, so He withdrew from them in order to use them to fulfill His plan. God’s love was so strong that He was determined to save His elect, and so in this way nothing was left to chance.***
The Reformed God’s love for the elect must only be exceeded by His hate for the unelect.
***Then could you explain that if God does not interfere with anyone’s free will, how was the crucifixion not a matter of chance?***
God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.
1 Cor 15:
3
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
5
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8
Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
Jesus died to pay the ransom for our sins. Interesting, and I thank you for the opportunity to discuss with you - I am always finding something that I have either forgotten or overlooked - please note verse 5.
Paul says that Jesus appeared first to Cephas before any other. That darn Cephas, always first among equals in following Christ. No wonder you guys don’t think much of him. :)
*** For example, did God “wait” for conditions to be “just so” before He decided to send Jesus to earth?***
God waited until conditions were right before He sent the flood. He waited until conditions were right to create the tongues at the Tower of Babel. He parted the Red Sea at the right moment. He stopped the Earth from spinning until the Isrealites won. He sent His Son to be crucified when the conditions were right. Not chance.
A seal was broken by Adam and Eve, and every human being ever since. The Jews kept breaking God's Covenant unceasingly in the OT times.
Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter
How do you know that God wants you to witness? The Great Commission was given to the eleven. And no one else. He gave the "keys" to the disciples and no one else. And they passed it on to others of their choice, and they of theirs, and so on in succession until this day.
If He addressed anyone in particular with such a request, it was never a crowd, but a specific individual. "Follow me" He would say to the person in question.