***For one thing, it should make sense given that the Spirit is clearly defined many times as a SEAL. A seal by God is unbreakable by anyone unworthy, as the Book of Revelation tells us.***
A seal in Biblical times is a mark or sign. It is not a lock.
http://sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd325.htm says that:
Seal: Commonly a ring engraved with some device (Gen 38:18, Gen 38:25). Jezebel “wrote letters in Ahab’s name, and sealed them with his seal” (Kg1 21:8). Seals are frequently mentioned in Jewish history (Deu 32:34; Neh 9:38; Neh 10:1; Est 3:12; Sol 8:6; Isa 8:16; Jer 22:24; Jer 32:44, etc.). Sealing a document was equivalent to the signature of the owner of the seal. “The use of a signet-ring by the monarch has recently received a remarkable illustration by the discovery of an impression of such a signet on fine clay at Koyunjik, the site of the ancient Nineveh. This seal appears to have been impressed from the bezel of a metallic finger-ring. It is an oval, 2 inches in length by 1 inch wide, and bears the image, name, and titles of the Egyptian king Sabaco” (Rawlinson’s Hist. Illus. of the O.T., p. 46). The actual signet-rings of two Egyptian kings (Cheops and Horus) have been discovered. (See SIGNET.) The use of seals is mentioned in the New Testament only in connection with the record of our Lord’s burial (Mat 27:66). The tomb was sealed by the Pharisees and chief priests for the purpose of making sure that the disciples would not come and steal the body away (Mat 27:63, Mat 27:64). The mode of doing this was probably by stretching a cord across the stone and sealing it at both ends with sealing-clay. When God is said to have sealed the Redeemer, the meaning is, that he has attested his divine mission (Joh 6:27). Circumcision is a seal, an attestation of the covenant (Rom 4:11). Believers are sealed with the Spirit, as God’s mark put upon them (Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30). Converts are by Paul styled the seal of his apostleship, i.e., they are its attestation (Co1 9:2). Seals and sealing are frequently mentioned in the book of Revelation (Rev 5:1; Rev 6:1; Rev 7:3; Rev 10:4; Rev 22:10).
Now for your quotes:
***4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade — kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ***
Note the term “trials”. A trial is a test in which one passes or fails. God offers His gift of salvation to all. If you are proved genuine, then you receive His gift. If you fail you don’t. God’s gifts are irrevocable. Our acceptance of them isn’t. The grace which He gives us is not withdrawn. We can reject it, though.
All the Apostles speak of may and hope. They speak of God’s mercy and forgiveness. You cannot forgive the unrepentant. The stiff necked Reformed who believe that they can do no wrong since they are led by the Holy Spirit do not demonstrate repentence; they demonstrate its opposite.
***We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it.***
How do you know? I can speak to my blood type and demonstrate my heart rate and show my blood pressure. That is knowledge. I believe and hope that I will be saved.
The Judgement occurs after death; therefore my salvation cannot be assured now since I am still alive as I post these words. I can pick up a gun and kill a school room full of kids tomorrow, regardless of the state of my soul today.
***We cannot know who the whole group of the elect is. Therefore, vis-a-vis US as individuals, the whole rest of the world is a mission field. So, while I am sure about myself, I cannot be “as sure” about my own beautiful bride, although I really, really, really, really, really “think” she is of the elect. :)***
Interesting. The good Reformed Dr. E. posted some months back that she knew that her children were all saved with the same knowledge that she had about her own salvation. Would either of you care to comment about that post and how to reconcile it with this one that I am responding to?
***FK: ***Actions do matter.***
How?
Because God requires that things actually happen within time. We could not be saved if God only supposed that Jesus die on the cross. It had to actually happen for it to be real and “count”. It is the same for belief (for you baptism) within time for salvation. It’s not theoretical, it has to really happen. Likewise, when God uses us to further faith in others via our witnessing, it HAS to happen, so these actions matter.
In addition, consider works. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Very true. Therefore, works done within time DO matter.***
Let’s step away from the Crucifixion for now, please. Let us concentrate on you and me as individuals. Our church calls for volunteers for the soup kitchen that Friday night. Does it matter in a Reformed way if you or I serve the poor? It most certainly does according to original Christian and current Catholic belief.
Whatsoever you do to the least of my neighbours, that you do unto me.
The Corporal Works of Mercy
1 Feed the Hungry
2 Give drink to the thirsty
3 Clothe the naked
4 Shelter the homeless
5 Comfort the imprisoned
6 Visit the sick
7 Bury the dead
The Spiritual Works of Mercy
1 Admonish sinners
2 Instruct the uninformed
3 Counsel the doubtful
4 Comfort the sorrowful
5 Be patient with those in error
6 Forgive offenses
7 Pray for the living and the dead
Yes, our actions shall be Judged. And I for one, am darned sure going to be Judged pretty harshly, now that I read this list once again...
***We start with the premise that God wanted to save His elect, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the method by which this could be accomplished. From there it would take great sin to put an innocent man to death. ***
FK, it happens every day on Earth in every city and in every jurisdiction. I spent 10 glorious years in Dearborn, Michigan, which borders on two sides with Detroit. Every day innocents were killed and raped and beaten and mugged. I agree that it takes great sin; I disagree that it is remarkable now (or then) to kill an innocent man (remember that you brought up the term innocent MAN).
***So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others.***
Not so fast, my friend. According to Reformed theology, God was never with them since they were obviously of the unelect and were all doomed to hell, right? So how could He withdraw from them?
***All were necessary for this to take place exactly as God wanted it. So God withdrew from them more so than other lost people, and left them to the nature they were born with, a nature that hates God.***
Are you saying that God withdraws from people in stages or different amounts? What in Calvin are you talking about? I thought that the Reformed unelect were deprived completely of God (or rather never had Him) and that the elect were full of Him. This is getting rather interesting.
***God had no duty to maintain them, so He withdrew from them in order to use them to fulfill His plan. God’s love was so strong that He was determined to save His elect, and so in this way nothing was left to chance.***
The Reformed God’s love for the elect must only be exceeded by His hate for the unelect.
***Then could you explain that if God does not interfere with anyone’s free will, how was the crucifixion not a matter of chance?***
God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.
1 Cor 15:
3
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
5
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8
Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
Jesus died to pay the ransom for our sins. Interesting, and I thank you for the opportunity to discuss with you - I am always finding something that I have either forgotten or overlooked - please note verse 5.
Paul says that Jesus appeared first to Cephas before any other. That darn Cephas, always first among equals in following Christ. No wonder you guys don’t think much of him. :)
*** For example, did God “wait” for conditions to be “just so” before He decided to send Jesus to earth?***
God waited until conditions were right before He sent the flood. He waited until conditions were right to create the tongues at the Tower of Babel. He parted the Red Sea at the right moment. He stopped the Earth from spinning until the Isrealites won. He sent His Son to be crucified when the conditions were right. Not chance.
Yeah, I am curious too! :)
You are not being honest again, Mark. I have never said any of us can be sure of anyone's salvation other than our own. And I've made that statement dozens of times.
Further, I said I have a reasonable faith that my children are saved...
1) because God gave them to me in the first place and
2) because Scripture tells us...
"For the promise is unto you, and to you and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." - Acts 2:39
But I also acknowledged God may choose to give anyone He wants a devil child. It's His call.
My job is to raise my children to kneel to none but Christ, and thus I have confidence that God will take care of the rest.
Let's agree that you won't speak for me and I won't speak for you.
A seal in Biblical times is a mark or sign. It is not a lock. http://sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd325.htm says that:
Your passage supports my case. For example: "When God is said to have sealed the Redeemer, the meaning is, that he has attested his divine mission (Joh 6:27). Circumcision is a seal, an attestation of the covenant (Rom 4:11). Believers are sealed with the Spirit, as God’s mark put upon them (Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30)." The Seal is God's signature, His attestation, His notice to the world of ownership. I do not understand why you would think those are worthless or breakable. Man would have to be more powerful than God to break God's seal.
Note the term “trials”. A trial is a test in which one passes or fails. God offers His gift of salvation to all. If you are proved genuine, then you receive His gift. If you fail you don’t. God’s gifts are irrevocable. Our acceptance of them isn’t.
If one has to pass a test to receive a gift, then it is not a FREE gift, it is a conditional gift. The Bible speaks of salvation being a free gift. From Got Questions? :
However, when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift. Here are the two words most commonly used for the gift of salvation:
1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.” This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved. Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God. It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10). It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15. It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15. This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.
The adverb form of this word is dorean, translated “freely” in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17. In Romans 3:24, immediately following God’s pronouncement of our guilt, we have this use of dorean: “Being justified FREELY by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” The gift of salvation is free, and the motive for the gift is nothing more than the grace of the Giver.
2) Charisma, meaning “a gift of grace.” This word is used to define salvation in Romans 5:15-16. Also, in Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT [charisma] of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” This same word is used in conjunction with the gifts of the Spirit received after salvation (Romans 12:6; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6; 1 Peter 4:10).
Obviously, if something is a “gift of grace,” it cannot be earned. To work for something is to deserve it, and that would produce an obligation—a gift of debt, as it were. That is why works destroy grace (Romans 4:1-5; 11:5-6).
So we can see that free gifts are not earned by passing trials.
The stiff necked Reformed who believe that they can do no wrong since they are led by the Holy Spirit do not demonstrate repentance; they demonstrate its opposite.
Stiff-necked, maybe. But believing that we can do no wrong, never. We believe that God is all powerful, sovereign, and is good for His word. We also believe that salvation is not earned by collecting enough "God-points".
FK: ***We CAN know about ourselves, but that is it.***
How do you know? I can speak to my blood type and demonstrate my heart rate and show my blood pressure. That is knowledge. I believe and hope that I will be saved.
But your hope appears to have all the strength of "I hope we have nice weather this weekend". Reformed "hope" is an expectation that God's promises will be kept. If the one true God is the same one described in the Bible, then it is a surety. The Bible instructs us to take stock of ourselves, so that means it is possible. Therefore, a person can know if he has true faith or not. If he does have true faith then he is saved.
The Judgment occurs after death; therefore my salvation cannot be assured now since I am still alive as I post these words.
Once again, salvation is not awarded based on points earned during life. I know that any Catholic would agree with those words, but at the same time you describe exactly that system for Judgment.
Interesting. The good Reformed Dr. E. posted some months back that she knew that her children were all saved with the same knowledge that she had about her own salvation.
She was speaking of a reasonable presumption based on scripture, not a certainty. I have seen Dr. E. say many times that only the individual and God can know for certain the salvation status of an individual.
[Continued on next post]
Let us concentrate on you and me as individuals. Our church calls for volunteers for the soup kitchen that Friday night. Does it matter in a Reformed way if you or I serve the poor? It most certainly does according to original Christian and current Catholic belief.
Yes, it matters if we serve the poor because that is an obedience to God. God called us to do such things and it is in accordance with His will. So it matters. One could also say that it is a part of perseverance, so it matters that way too. However, it does not bring us any closer to salvation in a similar way that running around the bases brings one no closer to having just hit a home run.
FK, it happens every day on Earth in every city and in every jurisdiction. I spent 10 glorious years in Dearborn, Michigan, which borders on two sides with Detroit. Every day innocents were killed and raped and beaten and mugged. I agree that it takes great sin; I disagree that it is remarkable now (or then) to kill an innocent man (remember that you brought up the term innocent MAN).
I live right across the river from East St. Louis, which makes Detroit look like Pleasantville. :) In any event, the point of my statement was to illustrate that the sin necessary for the crucifixion was no accident. God left the necessary players to their own devices to insure that it would happen.
FK: ***So, how did God guarantee that His will would be accomplished through Christ dying on the cross? He withdrew from the key players who were necessary, such as Judas, Pilate, Caiaphus, Herod, the lost Jews, the Romans, and others.***
Not so fast, my friend. According to Reformed theology, God was never with them since they were obviously of the unelect and were all doomed to hell, right? So how could He withdraw from them?
Yes, God was never with them, but that doesn't mean that God leaves all the unelect at "zero". Just as God gives the rain to all men, He also gives some protection to all men who are totally depraved (all of us at birth). Otherwise, we'd all be raving murderers etc. And whatever that level of protection is, is what allows no man to have an excuse.
Are you saying that God withdraws from people in stages or different amounts? What in Calvin are you talking about? I thought that the Reformed unelect were deprived completely of God (or rather never had Him) and that the elect were full of Him. This is getting rather interesting.
YES, it's in the Bible. :) For example:
Rom 1:26-32 : 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts . Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Since we know that God does not author sin, we know that He did not hit them with a "gay beam". :) He withdrew from these lost people and they started doing things that not all lost people do. We all know lost people who do not look like this. So, the "T" in TULIP does NOT equal full satanic evil. We don't see that in our world. However, if God does fully turn His back, then we DO see that result.
The Reformed God’s love for the elect must only be exceeded by His hate for the unelect.
That can't be right since we all start out unsaved. God's love overcomes that and some are saved. If we started out saved, and then hatred overcame THAT, then you would be right.
God waited until conditions were right before He sent the flood. He waited until conditions were right to create the tongues at the Tower of Babel. He parted the Red Sea at the right moment. He stopped the Earth from spinning until the Israelites won. He sent His Son to be crucified when the conditions were right. Not chance.
If men were behind the conditions, then you really ARE saying it was by chance. Your answer has God being a reactor, as opposed to an actor. That has man in control, and all things are by random chance. You have God coming in later to clean up the mess.