Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
For reasons which I do not quite understand, I have received no reply.
Forest Keeper: The Son is a separate person from the Father and the Spirit...
You forgot to aqualify it by "in the Divine Economy of our salvation."
I think Kosta was saying or implying that Jesus was free to disobey the will of the Father, and I disagree with that.
Then He wasn't fully human.
I was trying to show that Jesus told the truth when He said He came to do the will of the Father, and that He never deviated once.
Then the Son is subordinate to the Father. That's Arian heresy.
Because they are not apart I don't think it was possible for Him to deviate.
If they are not apart then we can't speak of God as somehting separate from Christ, to wit your saying "By never sinning He did everything God wanted Him to do." This is the same troubling concept used by Apostle Paul when he says that "God [sic] raised" Christ. It suggests, as Mark observes, that Christ is a separate entity from God.
I freely admit that the idea of scripture being an afterthought of God is fully consistent with the treatment scripture is routinely given by Apostolics around here. :) I think I am pretty close to a decent understanding of what Apostolics really think of scripture, and how it fits within your paradigm of earthly authority.
FK: ***I am fine with “inspired”, but I like “God-breathed” better. I think that better describes what is actually going on.***
Inspired is like leading. It does not guarantee perfection in the following. Same with the Holy Spirit. He is perfect; we are not. If we do not frogmarch, then it is up to us to follow Him. And we will falter.
Ah, that is exactly why I like "God-breathed" better, because God IS perfect, and He gave us His word perfectly as He intended. I think the Apostolic view must be that the scriptures are fundamentally flawed because they contradict so many holdings of the Church, dogma and doctrine. The only way for the men of the Church to be right is to bring down God and say that His word is flawed.
I would like to address this part of your post separately, as I think it may reveal some deper trinitarian and christological gaps between the Apostolic Church and Protestant communities.
If you had said that the "Son is a different persona" I would not be writing this. As you know, the Greek word hypostasis does not mean a "person" even thoughsome dictionaries may translate it as such. It really means something much closer to a persona, a projected character.
The "English" word "persona" is a Latin word transpant. It means the same thing it means in Latin! It is not equivalent to the English derivative , although, as mentioned earlier, some dictionaries will say so.
A persona is a perceived, projected character of the author or projected by an actor of a person being played.
In Greek "that which stand beneath" (hypostasis) is neither a "person" nor "substance." It is something akin to a perceived individual reality.
In the divine management of His salvation, God appears to us in three distinct hypostases. But they are one and the same God. God is simple and indivisible. God is a monad.
It is impossible to separate one from the other, Son form the Father, Holy Sopirit from the other two personae of God.
By treating them as "persons" of the same (divine) essence, or nature, we are intorducing tritheism, a multi-God trinity which is taught by the LDS cult.
This is no different than saying Kolo you and Mark are three persons of the same human nature or essence. Only if Kolo you and Mark were one and the same person behind these screen names could we say that all these screen names are not onyl separate entities on screen, but one and the same author behind it!
To us God revealed Himself as the Holy Trinity: in three distinct Hypostases. But they are all the same God.
I do have a relationship with the church, the one I attend. It’s alive and well, believe me. God directed me to this church and I’ve been here almost 25 years. I’ve experienced much growth here, grown closer to the Lord, found a wonderful husband who has been my dear caregiver, companion, lover, friend, at the church; found many friends who know and love the Lord and who have been great prayer warriors on my behalf and people I can turn to when I’m in need. Believe me, I’m where I’m supposed to be.
I do have a relationship with the church, the one I attend. It’s alive and well, believe me. God directed me to this church and I’ve been here almost 25 years. I’ve experienced much growth here, grown closer to the Lord, found a wonderful husband who has been my dear caregiver, companion, lover, friend, at the church; found many friends who know and love the Lord and who have been great prayer warriors on my behalf and people I can turn to when I’m in need. Believe me, I’m where I’m supposed to be.
FK, again I will say it is strange that you say this because it is subordinating Christ, making Him something other than God. That's why I asked if this peculiar view is something common to Protestant/Baptist christology. You agreed and I suspected that much.
It has been my experience that when your side goes down this line of questioning, no matter what the answer is you accuse my side of some sort of heresy. Your particular side is the "everything is a magical mystery" side, meaning you claim a universal pass by not being able to explain ANYTHING. So, I find it highly disingenuous when you criticize on a hyper-technical level. IOW, you don't even begin to be able to answer the questions you criticize others for not answering to your satisfaction.
With most Apostolics I would have you beat, since I would just ask you to explain if you think Christ prayed to Himself, etc., etc. However, given your view of the Bible, scripture arguments carry no weight with you.
Of course I did not say or imply that Christ was subordinated. Christ is God, there is no one to subordinate to. All I said was that God planned for everything that happened within time, and Jesus did not deviate from that plan, since He made it. If anything, I infer from you that Jesus was subordinated, since I "think" you believe He could have sinned, AND that you believe He made things up as He went along (i.e. your view that Jesus did not know of the Canaanite woman's faith). Further, your view of His work on the cross is very less than "God-like", thus subordinating Jesus.
According to Reformed theology, those who were saved by Christ were already saved from all eternity and not by anything that happened chronologically.
That is a very fair and common misunderstanding by Apostolics who have not had the benefit of having the principles being explained in painstaking detail to them more than a dozen times!!! :) Nevertheless, for the benefit of lurkers I will summarize once again:
God predestines His elect from before the foundations of the world. In this sense, "w" and "x" will be saved, and "y" and "z" will be lost. It is written in the Book of Life. Nothing can change that, it is God's will. Now, that does not mean that certain things don't have to happen during the life of the elect (under normal circumstances).
One of these things is true belief. When someone has true belief we say that this person is saved. But in the overall context, what that means is that another step has been reached that was guaranteed by the original predestination. That person, once a believer, is no more certain to reach Heaven than he was before belief (in either case it was 100%). It was a guaranteed step that from that moment on, among other important things, allowed the person to do good works pleasing to God and to know that he was in fact saved. Salvation "attached" as it were, BUT it must be remembered that Faith within time HAD to happen, but it was guaranteed by God from the beginning.
There is also the moment within time when Christ died on the cross, AND, the moment of the final glorification at the end, both of which could also be termed as a time of being "saved". Again, though, these were all guaranteed. Given the surety of God's word, His personal guarantee, I see all of these as being part of one thing. Therefore, what happens within time DOES matter, but it is guaranteed by God.
The key difference here is that your God guarantees NOTHING. He sets some sort of bar that a man must leap over to be saved and it is up to the man to do it. He doesn't even tell the man how high the bar is, he leaves that to your Church.
Forced "love" is really rape; it's no love at all. Christ certainly does not preach forced "love."
Then you believe that all Godly parents rape their young children. Do the comparison between what Godly parents do for their young children and what God does for us. Do we brainwash our kids or do we show them the truth?
FK: 'We all know that it is possible for perfectly good Christians to have temporary lapses in faith."
Is that God's doing too?
No, nothing that is sin is God's doing. However, God allows lapses for His own reasons in accordance with His plan. I have had a lapse, been punished, and then came out of it as a better Christian. God disciplined me because He loved me.
FK: Peter proclaims Jesus to be "the Christ, the Son of the living God". This was a confession of Jesus' divinity.
No it wasn't. "Son of God" is the Old Testament title for angels and Israel's kings, those who were favorites of God. There is nothing divine in that title.
Oh give me a break, Kosta. :) Peter said THE Son. If you are right, then how do you explain the immediate response by Jesus that Peter was blessed for saying this because the understanding was given to him by the Father? Did the Father tell Peter that Christ was an angel? Come on! :) You have Jesus either lying or supporting a falsehood.
Peter spoke, thinking one thing, without realizing what he actually said. He spoke the words, but did not connect the dots.
Well, then the Father really did NOT impart understanding, contradicting what Jesus said. Do you say that the Father revealed a deception to Peter? You literally have Jesus saying: "Blessed are you, Peter, for my Father has deceived you into thinking I am not who I really am."!!! :)
Is there such a thing when it comes to scriptures?
Yes there certainly is! I don't claim a corner on the market, but there are correct interpretations of verses and incorrect ones. I start with the premise that satan is the father of lies. Therefore, in my effort to be discerning, I always look FIRST for the lie whenever I read something satan says.
But I thought that you all thought everything was sealed up at Pentecost, when you say your Church was born. Was your Church born in error? Or, when did your branch of God's Church start being "rock-solid"?
FK: I'm sure John's theology grew, as it does with all of us, but I maintain that his original oral teachings were consistent with his later writings.
If they were, they are nothing like the teachings of others.
Different intentions call for different tone and content. God wanted the book of John to be different in the style of its teaching, so it was. John doesn't contradict anything in the Synoptics.
Makes you wonder why did He choose the eleven others who were on a dead-end mission to the lost sheep of Israel.
I don't wonder at all since that never happened. That is historical revisionism. For God there is no dead-end mission. Everything accomplishes its purpose. Since the lost sheep of Israel included some Gentiles, there was no dead-end.
It's nice of +Paul to tell us that "his gospel" is what was given to him "personally" by Christ, but it is not what Christ taught when He was walking the earth. I doubt that Christ changed His story.
I don't think Christ changed His story either. :)
FK: "I am fine with "inspired", but I like "God-breathed" better. I think that better describes what is actually going on."
Same meaning, that is moved, motivated, etc.
Oh no, not at all. "God-breathed" is from God's breath, it is FROM Him. You can say that "inspired" merely means a nudge, but you can't say that about God-breathed. That is a PERSONAL reference, God's very breath. Words from HIS mouth, as it were. God breathed life into Adam. Do you say that God nudged Adam to give himself life? :) Big difference.
In the vernacular, I associate myself with BD's comments. Testing helps to sanctify us during our lives. As I'm sure you are aware, Christians have very different experiences while here on earth. God is active and involved. He doesn't just sit back and "wait" (within time, plus nudging, plus chance) for the outcome of men's decisions, as the Apostolic position holds.
If God tests blameless people, what benefit do they get unless it is indented to strengthen their faith? In which case you are not secure in your faith and salvation as you say you are.
There are no blameless people, including Mary. But if you refer to the status of the elect, then testing DOES strengthen faith. Since we do not use a point system, a person with low level true faith goes to Heaven the same way a person with high level true faith does. Once a low level true faith is established by God (salvation), then sanctification begins and we move toward a higher level. This movement not only benefits us personally in our personal relationship with God, but it also makes us more useful to God to accomplish His plan for us as individuals. A fully saved person can and will always grow in Christ. At the point when that is no longer true, then it is time to be fitted for a harp. :)
Again, there was no point in testing Jesus, unless there was some 'benefit' that He would 'gain' from it as far as His faith is concerned, since there was no chance that He would fail.
One point of the temptation of Jesus was to prove to the world that He understood from first hand experience all the temptations that we face. It proved that He could relate to us on a real level with our real problems. I believe that has been a very great comfort to countless Christians through the ages.
But it makes perfect sense if Jesus is seen by the early Apostles to be the Jewish messiah, a mortal human, beloved of God, a favorite of God, the "son of God," like the angels and kings, a man who would be king of kings (on earth), blameless and perfect (like Job)!
It appears that your supposition is that the Apostles were dead wrong about Christ when they wrote what would become scripture. However, later, at some unknown time they got it right. However again, YOUR Church takes full credit for formulating the scriptures, in total error presumably, and then simply claims to fill in the error with tradition. If so, then if you sanctified this error-filled document knowingly, why should I follow any of your leaders or any group of your leaders after making such a catastrophic blunder in the first place?
And you got in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin the way the at least one word for "breath" is also the word for "spirit".
So while to many "inspired" these days may mean little more than "taking a notion", to me it will always mean "breathed into or 'enspirited' (usually by God)".
Just doing my little bit to add to the confusion, no need to thank me ....
Gotta love it! Great question.
Answer: Because I say so. Go to your room.
Seriously, the allegedly assured results of allegedly scientific Biblical so-called Criticism (are you getting the flavor of my feelings here?) serve to open my ears and broaden my outlook in one of my iterations through a passage. It's interesting, sometimes, to read what these guys have to say. And when we consider variant texts (what is the history of "the Woman Taken in Adultery" or the last verses of Mark anyway?), we have to give some thought to the possibility that the Bible as we have it, in whatever translation, has been through a few hands before it got to us.
The way I deal with this is to postulate the involvement of the Holy Spirit at many stages of production, guiding editors as well as original writers, and leading the Church to designate these books as sho' 'nuff holy and therefore different in important ways from all other books.
That must be how(postulation) we got John Mclaim as the republi'bot candidate.. Its not that his funding came from George Soros, the Tides Foundation and other left wing lobbying groups.. but he was postulated by the republic'bot faithful.. They counted(postulated) him as a conservative when he has done everything to prove that he isn't..
I've been wondering how that happened.. Brain washing, pure and simple.. Way too much main stream TV news(pBS, cBS, nBS, aBS), evidently... Liberal postulations are very much like propaganda.. and conservative postulations are like the Mad Hatter wishing you a Happy UNBirthday..
It's along the lines of 1 Co 13:12. It was only in retrospect that they began to extract all that was said and taught and put two and two together. But they certainly did not understand who Jesus was when they asked him if he will now "restore the kingdom of Israel." (cf Acts 1:6)
He picked 12 as judges of the 12 tribes of Israel in the restored kingdom (cf Revelation).
He sent them specifically to the lost sheep of Israel, specifically FORBADE them to go to Samaritans and Gentiles, and he specifically states that he was sent ONLY for the lost sheep of Israel. He never, ever commanded them to go to the Gentiles, nor did he ever himself go to them. In his mercy, he helped those who came to him, even if they were Gentiles.
You keep repeating ad nauseum that his mission included "some" Gentiles but cannot for the life of you come up with a single verse quoting him as saying that.
Oh no, not at all. "God-breathed" is from God's breath
That is a latter-day Protestant innovation. God's breath is power that animates. In the OT, the Spirit of God is equivalent to the Power of God. Power to move. The ancients knew that dead people don't breathe and they associated bretah with some sort of a "spirit" living inside them, i.e. life itself. So, in that context, God-inspired means "brought to life by God," initiated by God, moved by God to happen.
God breathed life into Adam
And that's what it means! God brought, moved, "infused" him to life, to existence ("and he became man"). It doens't mean Adam was made free from error, potential or otehrwise.
God-inspired means God moved the authors to write and bring scripture to existence. Without God as a concept in our imagination, there would be no scriptures. It does not say the scriptures are free from potential error, FK.
What world? Who was demanding a proof? If he was seen as God by the early Gospels, did they think God needed to learn or proves something? And since when is God doing things to prove to the world for the world's sake?
When I ask for proofs, you tell me that God doesn't condescend to human demands for such proofs. Yet, heere he is doing just that!
And if he could not be tempted, as you claim, what proof was made? It was no challenge but a charade.
Then Job 1:1 is a lie. Make up your mind.
***I think Kosta was saying or implying that Jesus was free to disobey the will of the Father, and I disagree with that.***
I keep seeing (or think that I keep seeing) statements from that would indicate that Jesus is somehow apart from God. Not out and out statements, but hints or references that could indicate that mindset. Jesus is God - the second person of the Trinity. I don’t think that such a question should even arise. God is not schizophrenic, nor does He have split personalities.
***The Son is a separate person from the Father and the Spirit, and they are all one in essence. Jesus has two natures, one fully human and one fully Divine.***
See what I mean?
*** I will grant that satan did leave out Scripture, but he quoted it as accurately as some Protestant fathers have.
So your response to my straightforward and cheap-shot-free showing that satan misquoted scripture is to compare satan to Protestants. SHEESH!!!***
Read my statement again. I did not compare satan to the general body of Protestants. I said that satan quoted Scripture as accurately as some Protestant fathers have.
I believe that in order to construct a number (most if not all) of Protestant theologies, that Scripture must be misquoted, and significant passages have to be left out. That was a large factor in the Protestant elimination of the Deuterocanical books of the OT.
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