HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]

The Rock ^ | May 1994 | Mark Shea

[Global2010]

St. Kolbe MarysTown Militia Immaculata

[Global2010]

Ah yes the Holy Day of Obligation that was the one I kept missing in our Catechism class.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Global2010]

As a Mom it is much deeper for me.

She suuffered at the foot of the cross as a human Mother and as a Mom myself who knows a lifetime of having been through that suffering and pain.

I can lift it all up to the Mother of God who carried a much greater amount of pain.

Militia Immaculata!

[RobbyS]

I didn't say that the dead are not dead. Their condition is not the same as ours, since they no longer have physical being. And even if we accept the Protestant notion of the "sleep of death," (till the Resurrection), surely they still live in Christ.

Revelations uses symbolic language when it talks about the prayers being as insense.(sic)

Why should I accept your interpretation of this? Your interpretation certainly fits your preconceived notion that the dead are oblivious to us. But mine voids your point about the lack of Scripture. Johns doesn't confirm your your literalism because he was the last of the Apostles. The rest of the New Testament, we shall assume, was written before his set his words down. Paul might set aside any questions about those who had "fallen asleep in the Lord,"since he expected the Lord to come soon. But John was aware that His coming was not yet, and he was assuring his readers that He would, and that the injustice felt by both the living asnf the dead would be set aside.

Part of your mother's whole identity is/was being your mother, just as part of yours is being her son. We don't exist apart from others; we can't exist without others. The notion of an autonomous person is contrary to observation of the way humans live. Like elephants, we are herd animals with long gentation periods and unlike them long childhoods.

As to your contention that your parents will be "different," do you mean before or after the Resurrection, if "before and after" really have any meaning to them, since they are no longer in our time or space?

[ScubieNuc]

So do I have this right? You pray to Mary because you think she 1)hears your prayers, 2)better understands your pain, and 3)can intercede in heaven with God on your behalf.

That contradicts Scripture.

Only Jesus is mentioned in Scripture as our Mediator.

1Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It is Jesus who has bourn our pain and carried our sorrow.

Isaiah 53:4,5 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

It is Jesus who has established a new covenant as our high priest.

Hebrews 8:1,2,6 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

[Global2010]

She is one of many of my Bible Heroes/Role Models

Just as I have many human role models down here on earth.

I am simplistic in mind but what is in my heart is complex.

Sorry that is the best analogy I can give.

[ScubieNuc]

I didn't say that the dead are not dead. Their condition is not the same as ours, since they no longer have physical being.

True, but the Bible still says nothing about praying to dead believers or that dead believers can intercede for us. The closest you might get would be from Revelations, so let me post those verses so that it is clearer.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Now, of course I don't expect you to take my word for anything. Read the Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit open your own eyes to the truth. That being said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that in the first verse John is talking in symbolic terms.

Next read some of the other New Testament verses where 'saints' is used. You'll clearly see that saints simply refers to living believers in Christ.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

2Cr 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and [take upon us] the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Matthew 22 says that our life after death will not be the same as this life. Exactly how that will play out, I don't know. In this life my mother's and father's status should be honored, but in the life with Christ, that relationship will most likely be so overshadowed by the recognition that God is our heavenly Father, as to be no more or less then my relationship with any other believer.

I believe that is part of what Jesus is trying to tell us in Matthew 12:48-50.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

What I find interesting in these verses is that Jesus had a prime opportunity to teach people about the supposed importance of Mary and how she would intercede for us, but instead Jesus says that when we do the will of the Father, we are THE SAME as his mother.

That idea is repeated in Luke 11:27,28.

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Your desire to proclaim blessings onto Jesus's Earthly Mom is exactly the same as that 'certain woman' commented on in Luke. It clouds and confuses people on what is more important. You would be better off reading the word of God and proclaiming people keep that, rather then 'honoring' Mary.

[ScubieNuc]

Sorry that is the best analogy I can give.

I don't know why you are trying to give me an analogy. If I stated your basic belief correctly, then could you please give me Scripture that backs that up. If I mis-stated your beliefs, then please correct me.

Just because we 'feel' something is right, doesn't make it so. God knows what is right and his Word is the guide to what is right. I am far from perfect and fail God on a daily basis, but I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if a doctrine isn't supported by Scripture, it isn't what God wants of me.

[Iscool]

Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him

But He didn't love 'her' in a unique way...He loved her as we all love our own Mothers...

What's more, Jesus never called her Mother, or Mom...He called her woman...Doesn't sound like a very unique love to me...

Pretty apparent Mike Shea is making stuff up...

[HarleyD]

From the article-Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.

Happy New Year to all and a blessed Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God, to all of you.

Happy New Year to you and all our Catholic friends.

Rom 15:5-6 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[defconw]

How would you know what he called her? You use one line from a life that was 33 years long? Please. Just leave it alone.

[Iscool]

How would you know what he called her? You use one line from a life that was 33 years long? Please. Just leave it alone.

The authors of the scriptures wrote from Divine Inspiration...It obviously was very important for us to know that Jesus did NOT want us to focus on His mother...

I have a question...Could you function as a Christian if Jesus' mother Mary was taken completely out of the picture???

[defconw]

I suppose, but let me ask you a question. Why are you so threatened by her?

[Ransomed]

“What’s more, Jesus never called her Mother, or Mom...”

HAHAHA—Never?? All my Jesuit brainwashing is foiled!

..............Freegards............

[A.A. Cunningham]

Jesus never called her Mother

If you don't know what Scripture says don't pretend that you do. You'll save yourself the embarrassment of exposing yourself as illiterate.

"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." John 19:26-27 (emphasis added for your much needed edification)

Pretty apparent Mike Shea is making stuff up...

You're not attempting to arrogantly tell us that you are privy to every word ever uttered by Christ, thus "making stuff up" and contradicting Scripture, are you?

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." John 21:25

[Kolokotronis]

PANAGIA PLATYTERA

Platytera means "Broader than the Heavens" and expresses our belief that her love is as expansive as the womb which encompassed the Ruler and Creator of the Universe!

"It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim. Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word. True Theotokos, we magnify thee."

[Mad Dawg]

Starting the New Year and the Solemnity of Mary the Theotokos with a little flame bait, are we? I can see that chumming the waters has already gathered the sharks.

[Mad Dawg]

I can quite understand the shying and bridling at the Assumption or at our papistical notion of the Immaculate Conception.

But what I have been coming back to more and more is this:

If by merely touching his clothes a woman could be healed of a persistent malady, what must be the consequences of our Lady's welcoming in faith the Son of God, sheltering Him in her womb for so long, suckling, bathing, feeding, dressing, caressing, cooing, tickling, counting his fingers and toes with Him, and of all the numberless maternal intimacies of heart and body that any mother has with her only child?

I think of how my one child, now 24, has taught me and continues to teach me so much about love and courage -- and she is a sinner of God's redeeming.

Theological question for the discerning:
When Mary played counting games with our Lord's digits, did she say,"This little unclean, 'cleaveth the hoof but cheweth not the cud,' creature went to market," or what?

How much more must Joseph have been blessed by caring for Mary's Son? And again how very much more - how could she have avoided, except by an unthinkable (in her case) act of will, the richest blessings consequent upon being filled with the Love of God?

It seems to me not at all contrary to Scripture but rather a result of really carefully and engagedly reading the Bible to develop at least a profound admiration for the Mother of our Lord, and to doubt her sanctity seems to me to be to question what the Love of God can do for and in us as we are drawn into Him and He (by His gracious act) into us.

[Kolokotronis]

“It seems to me not at all contrary to Scripture but rather a result of really carefully and engagedly reading the Bible to develop at least a profound admiration for the Mother of our Lord, and to doubt her sanctity seems to me to be to question what the Love of God can do for and in us as we are drawn into Him and He (by His gracious act) into us.”

For 2000 years our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has raised its praises to her as the Most Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, the Blessed Virgin, the Blessed Mother. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of us have had “recourse to {her] from the depths of our hearts”. Hundreds of millions of us have chanted her Akathist as by love we experience the “baptism of tears”.

We and our forebears are not fools, except perhaps fools for Christ. We have been given the great blessing of a rational faith that she is who the Holy Mother Church says she is and for us, MD, she is as real as our pwn mothers in the flesh.

[Salvation]

**a little flame bait**

It was meant to be peace-making, since it calls us to increase our love for Jesus as Mary decreases herself, yet her Son still loves her abundantly.