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To: ScubieNuc
I didn't say that the dead are not dead. Their condition is not the same as ours, since they no longer have physical being. And even if we accept the Protestant notion of the "sleep of death," (till the Resurrection), surely they still live in Christ.

Revelations uses symbolic language when it talks about the prayers being as insense.(sic)

Why should I accept your interpretation of this? Your interpretation certainly fits your preconceived notion that the dead are oblivious to us. But mine voids your point about the lack of Scripture. Johns doesn't confirm your your literalism because he was the last of the Apostles. The rest of the New Testament, we shall assume, was written before his set his words down. Paul might set aside any questions about those who had "fallen asleep in the Lord,"since he expected the Lord to come soon. But John was aware that His coming was not yet, and he was assuring his readers that He would, and that the injustice felt by both the living asnf the dead would be set aside.

Part of your mother's whole identity is/was being your mother, just as part of yours is being her son. We don't exist apart from others; we can't exist without others. The notion of an autonomous person is contrary to observation of the way humans live. Like elephants, we are herd animals with long gentation periods and unlike them long childhoods.

As to your contention that your parents will be "different," do you mean before or after the Resurrection, if "before and after" really have any meaning to them, since they are no longer in our time or space?

44 posted on 12/31/2007 11:56:45 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
I didn't say that the dead are not dead. Their condition is not the same as ours, since they no longer have physical being.

True, but the Bible still says nothing about praying to dead believers or that dead believers can intercede for us. The closest you might get would be from Revelations, so let me post those verses so that it is clearer.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Now, of course I don't expect you to take my word for anything. Read the Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit open your own eyes to the truth. That being said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that in the first verse John is talking in symbolic terms.

Next read some of the other New Testament verses where 'saints' is used. You'll clearly see that saints simply refers to living believers in Christ.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

2Cr 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and [take upon us] the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Matthew 22 says that our life after death will not be the same as this life. Exactly how that will play out, I don't know. In this life my mother's and father's status should be honored, but in the life with Christ, that relationship will most likely be so overshadowed by the recognition that God is our heavenly Father, as to be no more or less then my relationship with any other believer.

I believe that is part of what Jesus is trying to tell us in Matthew 12:48-50.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


What I find interesting in these verses is that Jesus had a prime opportunity to teach people about the supposed importance of Mary and how she would intercede for us, but instead Jesus says that when we do the will of the Father, we are THE SAME as his mother.

That idea is repeated in Luke 11:27,28.

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


Your desire to proclaim blessings onto Jesus's Earthly Mom is exactly the same as that 'certain woman' commented on in Luke. It clouds and confuses people on what is more important. You would be better off reading the word of God and proclaiming people keep that, rather then 'honoring' Mary.
47 posted on 01/01/2008 12:54:39 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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