You Must Be Born Again

It is not I who says that one must be baptized by water and the Holy Spirit but Christ. But I guess His word isn’t good enough for you.

Jesus never said that...Why do you claim Jesus said something that He never said???

Read it...Baptize isn't any where in the verse, is it??? All you see is water...

It doesn't say born again of baptism...Where was anyone ever born of baptism??? They weren't...

And it doesn't say you must be born again of water...That's not in the verse either...So as you can see, you and your entire religion have twisted the verses to attempt to make it say what you want...And it's heresy because Jesus NEVER said that...

It says you must be born again...

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Then just like Nick, you guys totally lose it...

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water

Were you ever born of water??? You certainly were...We all were...Jesus did NOT say you must be born again of water...

Jesus was explaining to nick that the new birth is NOT the birth of the flesh (water), but a new type of birth...Jesus says, 'Except you were born of water (which you have been); AND of the Spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You were born of water, AND you will be born of the Spirit...

And how do we know this??? Just a couple of verses down, Jesus makes a comparison...

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh (water) is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Your body is over 90% water...Who could miss this???

So there's no mention of baptism in water in the verse anywhere...It's talking about the 'new birth', in Christ...Not in water baptism...

We get it right at Baptism right away at six weeks old.

Really??? Did you repent; turn to Jesus when you were six weeks old??? You didn't did you???

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You ought to consult the scriptures if you really think you've saved and filled with the Holy Spirit just because somone sprinkled some water on you...

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Oh Oh....Jesus forgot to tell these people to get baptized after they repented...

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Oh No...Now the Apostles are pulling the same thing...Where's that all important 'baptism'???

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Your sins will be blotted out??? Without water baptism???You don't suppose a person could be filled with the Holy Spirit, the New Birth, by just turning to God, would you???

I'd suggest re-thinking your formula for salvation...Baptism without repentence just gets you wet...

>Glad to see you document the basis for Confirmation.

I assume you are replying to the following:
>>Much like Abraham’s intention to sacrifice of his only begotten son, Isaac, was what justified him, not the actual act. And you can notice that it is only that one act, not a continual series of acts, which justified him (Romans 4).

Well, I have a real problem with Confirmation. I was confirmed by the Missouri Synod Lutheran church. Unfortunately I was not saved. I had not died to my sins, and had not accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord of my life. I just did stuff that my church told me to do. I was a cultural Christian, without the dedication to change my life.

I am sure you know many in your church too. The ones that go to Marti Gras and have no problem heading to confession, fully intending to totally indulge themselves next year. They are the ones that think that all they have to do is go to church every so often. They are the ones that think they are good enough to go to heaven, while still living faithlessly in sin.

This is not being born again, as Jesus told Nicodemus. This is still living as a one of the flesh.

Yet confirmation tells those that are still carnal that they are saved, wrongly. It is an insult to Christ to have a church declare them elect, when they are so very much not truly saved.

>Um....What percentage of those claiming to be “Born again” act sinfully, relative to the percentage of those who have been Confirmed and act sinfully?

>(Hint: A = B)

Well, I would never say anyone is above sin. All sin. Even the best of us do. Those that deny that fail to recognize original sin, the fall and the way it has twisted man. It flatters man to think he is good enough. But that is ear tickling doctrine, and not what is taught in scripture.

Are any that live in any state of sin, and do not have an inkling of repentance, but are confirmed, saved? So what does this confirmation prove? Only that the person that makes the statement of faith during confirmation could have no clue what he or she is saying, and it could be just so many meaningless words. Does this glorify God? No, it is an insult.

Unless of course, you think that all it takes is continually participate in sacraments, without a internal change in your life, without repentance for the sins that you do commit; that with these half hearted actions you can be saved. Can you say lukewarm water?

I hope that is not the case, but people that believe such are as bad as the hyper-calvinists, and are as mistaken that they are saved.

Why is only half of the equation addressed?

[Are any that live in any state of sin, and do not have an inkling of repentance, but are “born again”, saved? So what does this “born again” prove? Only that the person that makes the statement of faith during “born again declaration” could have no clue what he or she is saying, and it could be just so many meaningless words. Does this glorify God? No, it is an insult.

Unless of course, you think that all it takes is “declaring that you’re born again”, without a internal change in your life, without repentance for the sins that you do commit; that with these half hearted actions you can be saved. Can you say lukewarm water?]

There...How’s that read?

>Why is only half of the equation addressed?

>[Are any that live in any state of sin, and do not have an inkling of repentance, but are “born again”, saved? So what does this “born again” prove? Only that the person that makes the statement of faith during “born again declaration” could have no clue what he or she is saying, and it could be just so many meaningless words. Does this glorify God? No, it is an insult.

>Unless of course, you think that all it takes is “declaring that you’re born again”, without a internal change in your life, without repentance for the sins that you do commit; that with these half hearted actions you can be saved. Can you say lukewarm water?]

>There...How’s that read?

It shows a lack of understanding of the term ‘born again’.

To be born again, as in what Jesus was saying, is a total change in the life of the repentant; the opening of the eyes and ears to how one sins. If you continue to see nothing wrong with living with the sins that you performed before the rebirth, then you are not saved.

Being born again is not a statement. It IS the change. If no change occurs, then the individual is not saved, and this conversation makes no sense to them. They said the magical words and think they are saved, and repentance and submission has nothing to do with their ‘faith’. The changed life and the results show that the individual is saved. This is the meaning of James 2:14-26.

Being born again makes one realize that they are not good enough for mercy or grace, that all they can do is as filthy menstrual rags to His righteousness, and that they must cling to the robe of Him that they are not worthy of untying His sandals. He is the one that cleanses. He is the one that gives the gift of repentance. Sola Deo gloria!

>Ah...my misunderstanding...if you’re “born again” you never sin for the rest of your life....sorry I missed that.

Was that claim made? I am sorry if that is how I came off.

I have sinned a hundred ways today that I am not even aware of. But I come before my Lord on my knees asking for forgiveness.

I would not even thought of doing such between the time I was confirmed and the time I actually was touched in the heart by the Spirit. I would not have thought of it simply because I was not changed so that I could even see my sin.

And confirmation had nothing to do with this. I know many in my family that show indifference to their sins, at least outwardly, and show no signs of which James was speaking. That side of my family are Catholic, and all have been confirmed. I just pray that I or some other instrument of God can reach them, and that they also can be born again.

>But I come before my Lord on my knees asking for forgiveness.<

You must be talking about ‘Confession’.
John 20:23
Matt 16:19 & 18:18
2 Cor 5:18-20
and the associated ‘Penance’.
Luke 3:8, 13:3, 24:47
Acts 2:38, 3:19, 8:21-22, 17:30
2 Cor 7:10
Matt 3:8
Ps 6:7
Jer 7:3

There are many who claim to be “born again”, who handle their shortcomings the same way your family does.
But that’s not what the Catholic Church teaches.

>You must be talking about ‘Confession’...’Penance’. [Numerous Scripture verses...]

Well, I am not going to get into dueling verses. I have no clue whether you are one of the “Scripture-is-not-to-be-trusted” Catholics, or just a “Verse-Cherry Picking” Catholics. Either way, that is not what we are discussing.

The argument is whether a confession is to be trusted, no? Does not the Catholic Church teach that confirmation is a confirmation that the one is elect, and saved (at least until the individual commits his/her last mortal sin and looses his/her salvation, totally ripping out tons of verses from Scripture)?

One must judge the tree by its fruit. A true faith will show (again James 2) true fruit. A confirmation can give false hope to the unsaved, and let them think that they are indeed walking with Christ.

Those that show no good works, whether they claim to be born again or confirmed by the ‘Holy Mother Church’, are (PROBABLY, as we cannot know the heart) not saved. Confirmation is not to be trusted just as a confession of ‘born again’edness. If their is no change in actions, there is indication that there is no change of heart and their confession is false and an insult to Jesus Christ, adding to the sin of the unregenerate.

BTW, what is the official Catholic teaching on Marti Gras? Ignorant minds want to know.

>Do you want to change the mind of your fellow man? Convince the undecided of the truth; namely, being “born again” does not perfect a person. Perfection happens way down the road, at the very end.

I cannot change minds. Only the preaching of the Gospel does the heart become repentant. God does all the work, gets all the glory. I do nothing but follow the command of my Lord.

Being born again, having the heart of stone removed by God and replaced by the heart of Flesh, justifies the recipient. All the sins of the individual are washed clean by the blood of Christ, future and past, once for all time. The individual will continue to sin, but through the process of sanctification, he/she will lessen in sinning and grow more in faith and purity in Christ. Perfection indeed does happen with the reception of the new bodies at the end. I hope that I did not give the indication of perfection prior to death and judgement.

>The journey down the road is not mitigated in any way by the profession of faith. The faithful endure the same trials as the unbelievers. Faith is neither a salve nor a shield. The opiate of the masses? Hardly . . .

The profession of faith is the first step of the saved, but I am not saying that their are not many who say “Lord, Lord...” and continue to damnation. Just the opposite. I am saying that confirmation allows many to continue to profess without conversion, and allow the false professors to think that now they are saved.

Faith IS a shield and a salve to those with real faith. I have nothing else to stand on, for all that I do is but dust. I have faith that the work and blood of Christ Jesus is sufficient and final, and that now, even as I am a sinner, I will be able to stand beside the throne of God the Father, as an adopted son. No act of Satan nor man, even myself, can snatch me from His hand, and that makes me even more thankful, more repentant, more clutching at the cross. God gave me the eyes to see, and now that I do, I can see nothing but God and His love for me.

If you insist on a snotty exchange I can oblige you.

I’m an “inerrant Bible” Catholic capable of citing Biblical references for Catholic beliefs.

re: Mardi Gras..Where have you read that Rome rationalizes sin?

Are you one of those grammatically challenged, Catholic bashing, Protestants, who claims that adverbs and adjectives from one Bible passage, modifies objects and verbs in other passages, with the goal of completely misrepresenting the meaning?

>If you insist on a snotty exchange I can oblige you.

Well, you must agree that there are many in the RCC who bring out an almost atheistic view of the Scriptures. I have spoken to many on this forum. You might not agree with them, but they are out there.

I don’t think that me calling the snagging of verses out of context to be snotty. I apologize if you are offended by the term Cherry-picking. If you take offense, all I ask is if you can argue with light, without heat. Just as I can argue that my Church is part of the body of Christ without being offended by being under the anathema of your Church, and hence, everlasting Hell. Snottiness has nothing to do with it.

>re: Mardi Gras..Where have you read that Rome rationalizes sin?

No. Perhaps you misread me. If one looks at all the Marti Gras festivals across the world, one notices that they are in Catholic dominated areas, as the last hurrah before Lent, and I wonder why in the world that they continue? Does the Pope, the spiritual leader in the Catholic world, not have a bit of power to control his own flock? I am asking if there is/was anything said about it. I am ignorant. Perhaps you yourself led an anti-Marti Gras protest. Sin is sin; indulgence and debauchery is as lethal as abortion, yes?

I pray that I am wrong, but it seems that your emotional response indicates you are through talking rationally, and must resort to invective. Should you wish to continue, I would be most pleased to! Please show the charity not to bring your emotions to the table, rather your faith and a willingness to share.

I mean this with all seriousness. I am trying not to offend, but rather continue a conversation, between two that both claim the title Christian.

If you wish to leave the conversation, that is alright also. Sometimes it is difficult not to be emotionally engaged, and it does not speak as a bad witness to your faith, and perhaps speaks as wisdom.

I hope you join me in praying Sola Deo Gloria!

Otto

If you look objectively at your introductry statement it reads like: ‘Which kind of idiot are you?’
Leaving that behind I’ll provide you with my standard Biblical references for Catholic teachings.
I won’t be able to stay and exchange further until year end.
Here’s the light:
Papal Authority:
Matt 16:18-19, 18:16-18, & 28:20
Acts 2:41 & 20:28
John 21:15-19
Ez 37:22-25
Eph 2:19-22 & 3:5
Luke 22:31-32
Gal 1:18
2 Thes 2:15

Salvation (Grace or Grace & Works?)
John 3:5
Titus 3:5
Eph 4:23
I Cor 9:27 & 10:12
Hebrews 10:26
Philippians 2:12
2 Cor 5:10
Rom 2:6, 5:12, 8:24, 11:22
Col 2:23
2 Macabees 12:44-46 (not in KJV)

Penance
Luke 3:8, 13:3, 24:47
Acts 2:38, 3:19, 8:21-22, 17:30
2 Cor 7:10
Matt 3:8
Ps 6:7
Jer 7:3

Confession
John 20:23
Matt 16:19 & 18:18
2 Cor 5:18-20

Eucharist
1 Cor 5:7, 10:16, 11:24, 27-29
Luke 22:19,20
Mark 14:22-24
Matt 26:26
Acts 2:42
John 6:27-71

Baptism of Children
Matt 18:14, 19:13
Mark 10:13-16
Luke 18:15-17
John 3:5
Acts 2:39, 16:15-33
1 Cor 1:16, 15:22

Confirmation
Acts 8:17, 19:6-20
Heb 6:2
2 Cor 1:21
Eph 1:13

Extreme Unction (Last Rights)
James 5:14-15
Mark 6:12

Purgatory
2 Samual 12:13
2 Maccabees 12:44-46
Luke 12:57-59
I Cor 3:15
Col 2:24
I Peter 3:19-21
I John 5:16-17

>If you look objectively at your introductry statement it reads like: ‘Which kind of idiot are you?’

>Leaving that behind I’ll provide you with my standard Biblical references for Catholic teachings.
>I won’t be able to stay and exchange further until year end.

But as you must start the pile with again, an invective I think I will stop my side of this conversation. As you obviously did not read the original article from the beginning, and must constantly resort to emotional outbursts, I will take the wise approach and bow out.

But I do want to congratulate you on the nice cloud of bible verses! I recognize chaff when I see it. And I understand that the RCC has cherry picked a bunch of verses to support their medieval traditions. I will not play ‘lets pile a bunch of scripture up and compare altitudes”, but rather would liked to have actually looked at verses in context, which almost always ends in the term “Anti-Catholic” or Catholic Bashing. Oh yeah, thats right, you already went down that road about three replies ago on a previous outburst. I just did not show the discretion at that time, but I will now.

I must say go with God, and hopefully you will actually read the original article and taste and see the truth from Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus.

Adeu!

Otto

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