Posted on 11/23/2007 9:14:46 AM PST by Gamecock
At this point Smith goes into a fascinating discussion of Genesis 1:1 and how this passage supports his theology,[1] but we move past this to remain focused upon ascertaining the what of his theology more than the how at this point.
Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at the time.[2] . . . In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn this way, we begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him, and how to ask so as to receive an answer. When we understand the character of God, and how to come to him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it.
Every LDS person who embraces these words as true must realize how they sound to the ears of an orthodox Christian. God calling a council of the Gods? Concocting a plan to create the world and people it? Such words are so far removed from historic Christian belief that many struggle to react properly to them. We must remember that it is claimed by Mormons today that this is also what was believed by the Apostles of Jesus Christ, such as Paul, John, and Peter. Yet, their testimony to these things has been muted by time and by the corruption of the Scriptures.
Man’s Spirit Eternal and Uncreated
Smith then goes on to lay the foundation of the LDS denial of creatio ex nihilo, creation out of nothing, the historic Christian belief that God did not create the universe out of pre-existing matter, but solely by His creative power and will.
Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation, say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God, and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost; they account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and He is within me, and comprehends more than all the world: and I will associate myself with Him.
How does Smith deal with the assertion that God created the heavens and the earth, as well as man himself?
You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, Doesnt the Bible say He created the world? And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaoschaotic matter, which is element, and inwhich dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.
Here Joseph Smith clearly teaches the eternality of matter, and the idea that God does not create but instead organizes. It should be noted, then, that while Smith has said that God has not eternally been God, matter has eternally existed. Hence, matter pre-exists God in that God has not always been God!
At this point, then, Smith moves to the spirit of man. Note well what he says:
We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says God made man out of the earth and put into him Adams spirit, and so became a living body.
The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal[3] with God himself. . . . I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven. . . . But if I amright, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.
Mark well the assertion, God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. This flows from the idea that the intelligence of spirits is immortal and without beginning, and that God Himself is to be numbered amongst the intelligences that areco-eternal with Him. This is what Smith means when he says God . . . could not create himself. The equation is complete, in that God and man are one species, one kind, along the divine continuum, separated by time and exaltation, but not by being.
The Principles of Eternal Life
The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.
This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them,and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given my by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.
With these words we close our examination of Smiths King Follett Discourse. One might wish to re-read the citations, or even read the entirety of the discourse as found in numerous LDS sources, to fully grasp the breadth of the doctrines that are so plainly announced here. This sermon fleshes out the passages we examined in the LDS Scriptures, and will shed much light on the many other passages we have yet to examine. But to close out this section, we note a vital truth: for Mormonism, this concept of God –including exaltation, progression, and the plurality of gods – is intimately associated with the gospel itself. Smith speaks of the principles of eternal life, and when Mormon leaders so speak, they are referring to the concepts found in the King Follett Discourse. An understanding of this fact has tremendous ramifications with reference to our over-all inquiry regarding the nature of Mormon teaching and the relationship between Mormonism and Christianity.
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[1] See the review of Smith’s effort by Sean Hahn, Joseph Smith the Translator here.
[2] At this point Smith goes into a discussion of how the German translation is more accurate than the English because it has Jacob rather than James at places. Seemingly Smith did not know German well enough to realize that Jacobus in German is the equivalent of James in English.
[3] A quick glance at almost any recognized lexical source for the Hebrew language will show that Smith is in error. The term can be used in many ways, but in the Qal form it is used only of Gods activity, and hence carries great theological import. McComiskey, in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1980), 1:127 notes that bara “differs from yasar ‘to fashion’ in that the latter primarily emphasizes the shaping of an object while bara emphasizes the initiation of the object.” Later in his article he writes,
The limitation of this word to divine activity indicates that the area of meaning deliniated by the root falls outside the sphere of human ability. Since the word never occurs with the object of the material, and since the primary emphasis of the word is on the newness of the created object, the word lends itself well to the concept of creation ex nihilo, although that concept is not necessarily inherent within the meaning of the word.
Hence, Smith’s assertion that bara means to organize is highly misleading at best, and downright erroneous at worst.
read later
I find it of interest that a man who, in his statement of beliefs, says that some man will be saved and others will not, because God has already made up his mind and we can do nothing to change it, BUT I MUST CHANGE MY WAYS.
“... man became spiritually dead, totally unwilling and indeed incapable of seeking after God. God, from eternity past, having foreordained all things, joined a certain people to Christ Jesus, so that He might redeem them from their sin and in so doing bring glory to Himself. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died in the place of this elect people...” from http://aomin.org/AOFAITH.html
Since, by James White”s own belief, I am already where God has placed me, I am already fulfilling God,s plan. I can do nothing to change, by his belief. How many of us are not among the “elect”?
>I find it of interest that a man who, in his statement of beliefs, says that some man will be saved and others will not, because God has already made up his mind and we can do nothing to change it, BUT I MUST CHANGE MY WAYS.
So the Mormon church teaches that God has no clue who is going to heaven? God has no knowledge of the future? That whole ‘Prophet Joseph Smith’ thing is just a title, and has nothing to do with ‘prophecy’?
Of course not. Just because the Mormon church runs screaming from predestination, (just like most Christian churches do), does not mean they don’t play footsie with Gods foreknowledge. The bible clearly teaches this doctrine that you disagree with (just look at Ephesians 1 for a good starter.)
I would contend that ‘revelation’ and ‘prophecy’ in the Mormon church has often had its problems with consistency. Racial issues is the biggest, easiest to see example. Mark of Cain, anyone? How about poligamy: “the only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” ? So Mormon prophets do say that God knows the future, its just that they themselves tend not to.
As for you changing your ways, even the Mormon church teaches that.
You certainly must DO things to reach the higher goodies in heaven. Don’t tithe and see how fast the Church comes to make sure you keep up THAT good work. I have heard it described by a ‘good’ Mormon as almost as bad as the IRS.
So your complaint is that this man, who shares generally the beliefs of your church that God can know things normally out of mans reach, and that man must change to conform to God’s will, has a higher view of what God is and what He can know and a lower view of man.
The unfortunate part for the Mormon church is that James White is backed up by Scripture and the Mormon church has nothing but the slippery shifting and changing revelation of it’s prophets and apostles.
It sounds like you are not interested in being one of the elect.
But if you want eternal life in Glory it can be yours, repent and believe that Christ was nailed to a cross for your sins.
Find a church that preaches that you are saved by His death alone and through faith alone and latch onto that message and you too can count yourself among the elect.
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James White, the author of this article, says that God decided that only some of us are elect, and some of us are not going to be with Him after this life. God decided this before we were created.
Do you also believe this?
But if you want eternal life in Glory it can be yours, repent and believe that Christ was nailed to a cross for your sins.
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So, you are saying you can work for your being saved?
Find a church that preaches that you are saved by His death alone and through faith alone and latch onto that message and you too can count yourself among the elect.
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Since “Faith plus works” is a mis-title made up by someone who did not want people to know what really happens, you should search for yourself to find out how we are “saved” and what the works are really for.
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I just had to add:::: This is not what the author, of the article YOU POSTED, SAYS. SO WHO IS CORRECT, YOU OR HIM.
And if you two do not agree with the meaning of the words in the Bible, should not you also spend your time trying to convert, or change, him.
And if you do hot agree with him, why do you post his message?
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You have done a good gob of using my question to give your mostly misdirected answer. You even managed to not answer my question.
The question is, If through predestination God has decided how to create me and what I am to do after I die, or restated, if I can do nothing to change where I am going because he has already decided where I will go, WHY SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT WHAT I DO IN THIS LIFE?
I WILL GO WHERE HE SENDS ME MO MATTER WHAT, BECAUSE HE ALLREADY DECIDED THAT BEFORTIME.
This is the bottom line of what you and yours teach.
James White is backed up by Scripture
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And yet, Gamecock, who is also backed up by Scripture, has said something other then James White. Who is correct, and which should you be correcting?
Since you guys, who know the true meaning of the words in the bible, DO NOT AGREE WITH EACH OTHER, how should we, who you also say are wrong, know which one of you to follow.
You have even said that most other Christian churches are wrong {(just like most Christian churches do)}!
What a mess you guys have created.
There whole focus is built about one word predestination and the 5 points of the tulip which comes from John Knox or Calvin the Presbyterians.
Listen to the audio http://www.reformingchurches.org/
with in 6 mins of the talk you will hear it.
Now if they keep doing what they are doing on their jouney many will find The(restored)Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Just keep praying for them!
Did you notice in there "who we are" section that they spelled out why they were right, and they needed to help others see the right way. Even though it implies the rest of us are wrong, it is nice to see someone who wants to teach me where they think I should go, and not try to shame me into running away from who I am. I am more willing to listen.
As for this group of “missionaries to the Mormons”, I wish they would answer my question about why I should do anything now if my hereafter is already set.
Did you notice in there “who we are” section that they spelled out why they were right, and they needed to help others see the right way. Even though it implies the rest of us are wrong, it is nice to see someone who wants to teach me where they think I should go, and not try to shame me into running away from who I am. I am more willing to listen.
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Sorry I am not following you I am listening to the audio and hearing Rev Campbell talk.
Somehow I feel if they keep on doing, what they are doing they will find the restore Church of Jesus Christ.
I don’t get bogged down in this other stuff for when truth is reveal this stuff will fade away!
D&C 9
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
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I enjoy a personal habit of finding out why people say what they do. After listening to the tape, I wondered around their web site. The point I was trying to make is that they are much nicer then the people posting here.
Absolutely those on the site have the spirit with them and are willing to listen and if they continue to be guided by the Lords spirit, and take the Holy Spirit counsel, they will be edified and find the promise land!
>You have done a good gob of using my question to give your mostly misdirected answer. You even managed to not answer my question.
Sorry, not my intention.
>The question is, If through predestination God has decided how to create me and what I am to do after I die, or restated, if I can do nothing to change where I am going because he has already decided where I will go, WHY SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT WHAT I DO IN THIS LIFE?
Okay. We do what is in our nature. When the unregenerate are in rebellion against God, it is because they know no other way. That is why the Great Commission is so important; for through the preaching of the word the Spirit will move. We do not know that even Hitler or Saddam Hussain didn’t get moved by someone prior to their deaths, and they might be saved.
Your nature will dictate what you will or will not do, and your nature is changed when you are reborn in Christ. Yes it was decided from before the foundations of the Earth, but that does not mean that you, I or anyone but God knows who is or is not elect. Your actions DO matter. Just as through the actions of the faithful spreading the word, God moves people from the dead in sin, to those that are alive in Christ.
>I WILL GO WHERE HE SENDS ME MO MATTER WHAT, BECAUSE HE ALLREADY DECIDED THAT BEFORTIME.
Your actions will determine where you are sent. We are punished justly for our rebellion. We are shown mercy by not being punished immediately for our sin. Some are given the grace of adoption for nothing that we have done, but for God giving us the eyes to see and the ears to hear. Sticking your fingers in your ears and slamming your eyes shut will just get you what you deserve.
You may or may not willingly give your self to Christ, I cannot judge this. But you will not do so without God working in your heart, freeing you to do so. I pray that the Spirit works in your heart, allowing you to see the God that poured out Himself so that those that believe will not perish.
>This is the bottom line of what you and yours teach.
THIS is the bottom line of what the Reformed doctrines are. You, by no work of your own, but by God from before time, may have had your name written in the Book of Life. Most have not, and will justly be sent to the eternal fire and torment of hell, and will never choose the right path, for they want to rebel against God. The elect will be those that do not fall away, but those that persevere. Everything that you or I do is tainted by sin, and can only be repaid by death. Only by holding to Him that was not tainted, may we be saved.
I understand that J. White is hated by some for what he says about your religion. Please do not let this taint your understanding of his faith, or try and vilify him for it. He is trying to obey God by spreading the Word to the unregenerate, much like the missionaries the Mormon church sends to the Christians. I understand that some few Christians treat your nice young men horribly, but that is no excuse for you to do the same to Doctor White.
I am lost. It seems to me that you are saying that I will be rewarded or punished for my actions, and the reward or punishment in the here after was decided before I did my actions.
That seems to be incompatible to me.
Your arguments against Calvinism are really lame arguments. Perhaps you should take a few minutes and learn something about Calvinism before you go off and embarrass yourself.
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I looked and that is what I found when I boiled it down to the basics as I saw it. If you would care to tell me why you believe you are correct without telling me why you believe my church is wrong, I will gladly listen.
I fully understand that there will be times when what you say about your beliefs will also mean that mine is wrong, but that is OK.
You switched the subject from the quotes of the leaders of your church to the fallacies of Calvinism.
Why don't you respond to the points raised in the article rather than simply attacking the author on something that has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the statements made by your church leaders.
Arminians believe that the LDS is a false religion as much as Calvinists do. The statements of your leaders speak for themselves. Mormonism is a strange religion with a whole plethora of weird statements made by your Prophets which are downright embarrassing to any thinking human being. Perhaps you could take them one by one and explain why it is that your prophets could be so misled and yet still be the living mouthpieces for God.
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