Grace, Faith, and Works

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[Salvation]

 

Grace, Faith, and Works

  

Real Audio Lessons on this Topic

Justification by Faith Alone? I
Justification by Faith Alone? II
Justification by Faith Alone? III
Justification by Faith Alone? IV
What it means to be born again
Are you saved?

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sola gratia! Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is pray the "Sinner's Prayer" once to be saved is wrong. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.

 
"We are saved by 'Faith alone'": No!

It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Bible and the Catholic Church don't separate the "works of faith," preceded and caused by grace, from salvation (see relevant Scripture below) You can have all the faith in the world, enough to move mountains, but if you don't have charity, you are nothing:

I Corinthians 13:2 2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

"We can work our way into Heaven": No!

Catholic teaching for 2,000 years:
we are saved by grace alone, through faith that works in love

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

All our works get their merit only from Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. We can do "works" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our lives, but without Christ's grace, they are nothing. Works have no merit in themselves -- and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).

Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone":

I am a former Catholic who was recently saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ. All my life I knew I was a homosexual. The Catholic Church told me that I had to refrain from what I was in order to be saved! I never knew that my good works meant nothing! To think, I would have spent my entire life struggling not to engage in homosexual activity, just to wind up in Hell! I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!

The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying:

It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Well, "pastor," that's what Catholics have been saying all along!

The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice. Salvation is a free gift -- a gift that is not "owed" to us, that God didn't have to offer us, and that we could never "earn" on our own -- that we accept by faith and works. Christ doesn't have to give us this gift of salvation; we don't "deserve" this gift, we can't "earn" it; but He, in His endless Love for us, offers it nonetheless. We have to believe this gift exists (have faith) and then open our hands to receive it (obey, inspired by the grace given to us).

An analogy: there is a train called "Grace" that is the one and only route to Heaven and which is fueled by Christ's Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension alone. Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well. They accuse Catholics of thinking that belief in the train is unecessary, that we can give out free soup in the train station and, thereby, bypass the train altogether. But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches. God is the Conductor of the train, completely Sovereign, and can go off the tracks if need be to pick up those who are truly and invincibly ignorant of the train's existence but who are of good will, obey the natural law, and whom He deigns to save. If, when, and how He might do such a thing is completely up to Him and not for us to bicker about. It is to us to do what He has taught us: to believe, repent, love God and neighbor, and preach the Gospel.

Born Again?

Many non-Catholics, in their confused zeal for Jesus, are constantly asking Catholics if we are "born again," admonishing us that unless we are "born again" we cannot be saved. But you see, Catholics, like St. John the Evangelist in the third chapter of his Gospel, relate the phrase "born again" to the results of Baptism. Baptism is how we enter into the New Covenant, in the same way the Hebrews and Israelites entered the Old Covenant through circumcision (which, you'll note, was done to infants).

When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience." They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of "proof" of having been "born again."

Traditional Catholics most certainly agree that repentance (what we call "metanoia") is necessary and that inner transformation (what we call "theosis" or "sanctification") is the goal, but we are very conscious of not confusing "feelings" with "faith." These are two different things, and mere "feelings" can lie: ask anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced cocaine or Ecstasy, been to a Woodstock-like music festival, or is just having a really excellent day. Oceanic "feelings of oneness" and "happiness" can be had in pagan religions (read about Greek and Roman "bachanalias" sometime), through natural or artificial chemicals, through the feeling of "falling in love," through hypnosis, through highly sensual experiences, and other things that have nothing to do, inherently, with Christ. The ancient Greeks babbled in tongues, and glossolalia can is still practiced today among Voudun ("Voodoo") cults, during Japanese seances, and by other false religions and in other cultures all over the world. These sorts of experiences must be discerned, and the spirits must be tested! Remember what Christ said would happen even back in the first century:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is important to test the spirits and not devalue reason and doctrine! Know that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance according to Galatians 5:22-23. The fruits of the Spirit are not out of control shaking, screaming, running around, falling down, "holy laughter," vocalizations that don't edify the Church, a "feeling" that doctrine and religion are now unimportant, etc. One should be more in control of one's self after an encounter with the Holy Spirit, not less.

St. Teresa being filled with the Holy Spirit (by Gian Lorenzo Bernini, 17th c.). Catholics would call this experience "being in ecstasy" or "having a mystical encounter."

As to "personal relationship with Jesus, " think of the great Saints -- everyone from Thérèse de Lisieux to St. Francis -- are these people not "born again" in the Protestant sense of "having a deep relationship with Christ" while still remaining 100% believers in traditional Catholic doctrine? Read about the life of St. Patrick and then talk to me about a "personal relationship" with Jesus that some Protestants think Catholics just don't understand.

What of our holy martyrs like Maximilian Kolbe or Nikolaus Gross, murdered by Nazis because of the virtue compelled by their Catholic faith? What about Joan of Arc, martyred for her refusal to deny the divine origins of the voices that led her to defeat the English? If you want "personal relationship with Jesus," read the writings of St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross!

Have you been saved?

Another question Catholics often hear is, "Have you been saved?" Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior." We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism (or just Baptism in the case of infants) and is then "worked out" (Phillipians 2:12) as we endeavor to "put on Christ." Additionally, we don't see salvation as something that can't be lost (2 Peter 2:20-21). Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn't sure of his own salvation. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Who are we to be more "sure of our salvation" than the Apostle Paul?

Most Catholics, of course, are able to speak of specific events such as the first time they truly "got it" that Jesus is Lord or that the Church and its Scriptures are true; many are able to tell specific stories of experiences of the Holy Spirit. Many have wonderful stories of healings, consolation, and miracles. But to speak of "having been saved," in the past tense, is something we tend not to do unless we are speaking about our Baptism, at which time we were first justified. We speak, instead, of "being saved," in the present tense, as we obey Him after Baptism and endeavor to keep accepting the gift of salvation which we could never earn on our own.

Many Protestants tend to see salvation in legal terms: "I believe, therefore, I am saved because that is God's promise to me. As long as I believe, I can't lose my salvation because the terms of the contract are that I simply believe and I will be saved." Catholics see salvation more in terms of kinship, our adoption into God's very family, our becoming, literally, true children of God and inheriting Christ's sonship through Jesus' sacrifice. We see "working out our salvation" as those things we, inspired by the Holy Spirit, are called to do as children of God, in the same way that a child honors an earthly parent -- and we see God's gift of eternal salvation to us as an inheritance from our Father rather than a "pay-off" for having fulfilled a "contract" by a simple assertion of faith. And as a father can "disinherit" a child if that child no longer treats him as father and freely walks away from his inheritance, so our Father in Heaven can "disinherit" those who don't treat Him as Father (Romans 11:22; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 3:17-18). For more in-depth information, read the transcript of this debate on "justification" between Scott Hahn, Catholic and former Presbyterian minister, and Dr. Robert Knudson of Westminster Seminary.

To sum up

So, here's how a Catholic would answer the standard questions from Protestants:
 

Q.	Have you been "born again"?
A.	Yes, when we are baptized, we are "born again of water and Spirit" (John 3).
Q.	Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
A.	Some Catholics are good Catholics and have a deep personal relationship with Jesus by trusting in Him and receiving His Sacraments. Other Catholics are mere "cultural Catholics" who call themselves "Catholic" because they were baptized once, but don't believe what Christ's Church teaches or don't have the will to practice what His Church commands. Such Catholics are "dead members" of the Church and must be restored by faith and the Sacraments. Instead of the "Sinner's Prayer," each year at the Easter Vigil, Catholics renew their Baptismal promises by rejecting Satan and all of his works, and by affirming their faith in God the Father, in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, and in the Holy Ghost. Yes, a Catholic could go through the Vigil by rote and not mean it, just as a person can say the "Sinner's Prayer" and not mean it. Christ is the Judge of men's souls, however, and He knows who truly has faith.
Q.	Have you been "saved"?
A.	Those Catholics who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Catholics who don't have faith and don't obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.
Q.	If you were to die tonight, do you know for an absolute certainty that you would go to Heaven?
A.	No more than St. Paul did when he wrote to the people of Corinth. But we do have the assuredness of knowing that God keeps His promises, that He is good and merciful and just, and that He so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son so we might not perish but have everlasting life if we believe, repent, obey, and trust in Jesus.
Q.	By what means are we saved?
A.	By the grace of Christ Whose Blood was poured out for us at Calvary. This Sacrifice is the only means of salvation; by Christ and Christ alone may a man be saved. There is no other way to the Father.
Q.	Why was His Sacrifice necessary? Why did He have to die?
A.	God is infinite Justice and Perfection. Because He is infinite, our sins offend Him infinitely. There is such a chasm between God in His vast perfection and us in our creaturely weakness that nothing we could do could possibly assuage Him for our offenses. But as much as we deserve death, He loves us still and wants us with Him for eternity. In order to restore His honor and maintain the perfection of His justice, there had to be an infinite Sacrifce of appeasement. So, God Himself took on flesh by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary and became man, not only to teach us with His words, but to save us with His Blood. Only God Himself could save us from the effects of our offending Him because we are so imperfect and weak.
Q.	What must we do to accept the fruits of this Sacrifice and be saved?
A.	In three words, "Believe, repent, and obey." We must:  believe and trust in Christ (John 3:16);   repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:19, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38);   obey the will of the Father and keep the commandments (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19);   eat the Body of Christ (John 6:51-69) -- but not unworthily, and only after discerning the Lord's Body lest we eat damnation onto ourselves (I Corinthians 11:23-30);   judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:28-31) and, when we fall, confess our sins to those to whom Christ has given the authority to forgive sins in His Name, and to obey that authority when it comes to what is bound and loosed (Matthew 9:5-8, Matthew 18:18, John 20:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:18);   love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31).

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Relevant Scripture

1 Samuel 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 4:14-19
The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:1-7
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit [Baptism]. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' [This entire chapter is about baptizing, John the Baptist, "ceremonial washing", etc.]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [Note that the verbs here are in the past tense; Paul is undoubtedly referring to those who've died in a state of grace and whose justification and santification have been completed. And don't read this verse out of context of the one that came 12 verses before it -- Romans 8:17, which says that our glorification depends on our suffering along with Christ, and Matthew 22:14 that says "For many are called, but few are chosen." Being "called" doesn't mean automatic justification.]

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 11:17-23
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. [In other words, you're "grafted in," a part of the New Covenant -- but don't brag because you can be cut off]

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [It doesn't say "unless these people have had the experiences of "feeling saved" or having been born again.]

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. [Even Paul wasn't sure of his own salvation!]

I Corinthians 10:8-12
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. [NIV: "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"]

I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Colossians 1:23-24
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of [lacking in] the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church. [the NKJV and the NIV translate this last part accurately as: "and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."]

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [RSV: "...worse than an unbeliever." What is being said here is that "believing" is not enough!]

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [the Greek word for knowledge here is epignosei, which means a knowledge from experience, not just intellectual knowledge, which would be oida. In other words, the people being talked about here "knew Christ", they had a "personal encounter with Christ" and had the experience of "getting saved"; they didn't just simply "know of Him."]

2 Peter 3:17-18
...beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever.

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [in other words, it is possible not continue in the Father and the Son; it is possible to fall away]

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

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Further Reading

Temporal and Eternal Salvation Important article on Protestant and Catholic uses of term "faith"
Righteousness and Merit another article highlighting the differences in Catholic and Protestant language
Justification by Faith Alone
Justification in James 2
Assurance of Salvation?
Salvation Past, Present and Future
Resisting and Cooperating with God
Are all Christians Predestined to Persevere?
The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical

 
 
 

[Mad Dawg]

By the consistent tone of your posts, it would be more accurate to say that we should just ask you what to believe

More than that, we should ask Protestants what WE believe and why, since they evidently know so much better than we do not only the articles of the Catholic Faith but also our psychology. If we could get 'em to go to church for us, we coudl stay home and watch Meet the Press

On second thought ....

[Mad Dawg]

Does this mean that this thread is open for debate and criticism?

Okay, I've seen the art criticism, and I've seen a few declarations about how we are irredeemably apostate. I'm wondering when we get to the criticism of content and the actual debate.

[Mad Dawg]

They are very much tolerated by the local diocease.

Ah yes, the anti-catholic double-bind, famed in legend and song. When our antagonists tire of castigating us for exercising iron control over the minds, hearts, and lives of our believers, they take up castigating us for being too tolerant of the wayward, and trusting too much the God will gather His sheep. As long as the conclusion is that Catholics are wrong, wrong, wrongity,wrong, wrong, any old argument will do -- even art criticism.

[Mad Dawg]

Hmm, white hooves. There's gonna be a problem with weakness and brittleness and poor tolerance of wet conditions there. And the mouth is all wrong. Lambies smile more.

I like the neck though. These days they're breeding sheep for longer necks, but I always thought that a short stocky neck was safer for a ram - ever since I had a good yearling ram lose a fight because his neck broke. SUCH a drag. I came home from Mass, and there he was, still warm but definitely dead. I had to pay for a vet call and a necropsy to find out why.

ALso, I'f I'mpaying for pasture and feed, I don't want it to go to grow a basically useless part of the sheep. Let's go for loin and leg, please. Of course neck wool can be very fine....

Oh, were we talking theology? I thought once we got to art criticism the floor was open to anything....

[GoLightly]

I'm wondering when we get to the criticism of content and the actual debate.

Way back in my post #35, I offered criticism of some of the content & it has been ignored.

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks for bringing your post to my attention.

What would cause y'all to board the "Grace" train, rather than the one heading to Hell? You just that good, smart or deserving in some way? You go through the motions, "do works" until you've become good, smart or deserving enough to board?

That is the hinge question isn't it. If it's just a matter of our having the intelligence or goodness or luck -- whatever a monotheist thinks "luck" is -- to get on the train, then we're semi-Pelagian, it seems to me (or worshippers of the whore goddess Fortuna, I suppose).

As I said to Miss Lucy Goosey, I think there's as good a discussion as an of our Papist view in Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Prima Secundae, Q. CXI et seq. and especially Question CXIV, articles 1 and 2.

The best my poor mind can do with it (especially since I'm at work and for some reason they don't have the Summa here -- what kind of exercise studio is this anyway?) Is that there are graces all the way. Grace at the start, and grace prompting and enabling the "works", (Gimme one with the works, please) and subsequent to the works.

I actually think Iscool's formulation is good. It's not exactly ours, but it's good.

One simply cannot work one's way to grace, for two reasons: To say we are able to do a good work - good in outcome and good intention, and good all the way through, is to fail to take to horror of Original Sin sufficiently seriously. And the other other reason is sort of tautological: if we earned it, it ain't "Grace".

But, in love and perceiving ourselves to be in Love, we find ourselves given good works, both the desire and the ability -- and I stress that the desire and the ability are all graces -- to accomplish them.

But first and last we are surrounded by Divine gifts and Divine giving.

Or, another aspect of it: St Paul says," Now I live,yet not I, but Christ lives in me." And my gloss would be that if I ever do anything that might have something good in it, it is the Christ living in me who did the good part.

And this is one reason that when you say to a Dominican, "That was a GREAT sermon!" he's more likely than not going to respond,"Praise God!"

(Except the ones who know me. THEY say, "Okay, Dawg," - they know my online name - "what do you think's wrong with it?" and then dialectically wrestle me to the ground and stomp on me.)

[Iscool]

BTW, I feel cheated by this post. No "y'all" in this post.

Well, 'you guys' is pretty close to y'all...

[Iscool]

You know what they always say...

You can take a converted Catholic out of the Protestant religion, but you can’t take the Protestant religion out of a converted Catholic...

[Mad Dawg]

different side of Mason-Dixon Line....

[Mad Dawg]

It's interesting. naturally I wondered if I was just slathering a Catholic veneer over my thinking. So for a while there I was running it by the most "orthodox" Dominicans I could find, and our little ad-hoc inquisitions always came out in my favor.

Then one guy says he has a Dominican friend who wrote a paper suggesting that if you sort of take Calvinism (I guess NOT in the double-predestination aspects) "all the way" you end up with Catholicism. And certainly my experience included a big chunk, as I used to put it, of "Trying to live as though I believe what I believe."

What do you DO when you "hear" in your heart that Jesus loves you whatever you do, because His love is based in who He is, not what you do? Well, for me, I want to spend more time with this wonderful lover who offers me everything I need and more than I ever imagined, not because I think it'll make Him love me more, but because, well what ELSE would I want to do?

I would rather be a door keeper in the house of the Lord than dwell in the tents of wickedness, because, well, because it's the House of the LORD!

I'm babbling. Sleep deprived .... pay no mind.

[GoLightly]

That is the hinge question isn't it.

It is, which is the reason I asked! If it's just a matter of our having the intelligence or goodness or luck -- whatever a monotheist thinks "luck" is -- to get on the train, then we're semi-Pelagian, it seems to me (or worshippers of the whore goddess Fortuna, I suppose).

Which is why those of us on the outside looking in regularly make the charge about semi-Pelagism whenever all y'all start to wave the "free will" flag.

As I said to Miss Lucy Goosey, I think there's as good a discussion as an of our Papist view in Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Prima Secundae, Q. CXI et seq. and especially Question CXIV, articles 1 and 2.

I don't have a lot of time today & am distracted because of it, but meanwhile, Project Gutenberg... http://tinyurl.com/2edjxp

Is that there are graces all the way. Grace at the start, and grace prompting and enabling the "works", (Gimme one with the works, please) and subsequent to the works.

I think this is among the parts that caused Iscool to respond to this post the way he did. A Proty will be unapologetic about saying it's Grace, Grace all of the way. Some of us will take it further & tell you that our free will can only muck it up & yeah, God allows us to do that.

Gotta run. More later. Last round of chemo starts in less than an hour. The marker in my blood tested "normal" a week ago!! Still gotta do this last batch of chemo before I'm run through some tests to see if I've beat the beast.

[Mad Dawg]

Blessings on the chemo, and if you think I'm going to attempt Aquinas while "running the store", you crazy, woman!

A big part of the confusion, I've thought for decades is like this: Moses says, wonderfully, "The Lord will fight for you and you have only to be still."

Mad Dawg says, "Learning how to be still could take a lifetime. (And even after that lifetime of struggle, it'll still be Grace that taught and Grace that let you learn."

And so it's at that area of thinking about pastroral care and "moral theology" (as distinct from ethics and morality) naturally lends itself to language that focusses on the subjective. And it SOUNDS like we're talking about works, works considered as somehow autonomous.

There IS some kind of effort, or subjective perception of effort, in, say, paying attention when I read the Bible. I mean I can think about, Oh, I don't know, my new kitty, Clint, and the local sheriff's election, both of which fascinate and divert me, or I can kind of gather myself, do a mini act of penitence (just plain "Sorrow", would be a better term) for being so labile and unfocussed and, once again, turn to my reading, asking God to steer my alertness and thought and such.

But, at the end it will be God's Spirit in me reading God's word, and at the end I simply cannot say,"Wow, I'm a good little boy, I read my bobble!"

Still there was that, as I say, subjective perception of effort.

Go ahead: Try to stop trying .....

heh heh heh

Have I given my "doing an original proof in geometry" analogy? How important is it (and how is it important) to build the altar HERE before the fire falls over there?

[Lord_Calvinus]

***As I said, it was an unbiblical account. Do I really need to give examples, or is your Bible really that dusty?***

Yes, give examples without acting like a jerk.

[GoLightly]

Blessings on the chemo, and if you think I'm going to attempt Aquinas while "running the store", you crazy, woman!

Thanx! My system seems to breeze through the chemo... soon as I realized my worst symptoms were coming from stuff that was given to me to deal with symptoms, I quit taking any of the "cures" & started eating candy that covered the yucky taste in my mouth. First kinda chemo needed peppermint patties & the one that I'm on now needs gummy orange slices.

We'll have to get back to Aquinas later.

A big part of the confusion, I've thought for decades is like this: Moses says, wonderfully, "The Lord will fight for you and you have only to be still."

This reminds me of Don Juan's teachings to Carlos Castanada. Our doings confirm our preconceived notions about the universe, tie us to it. Don Juan tried many different strategies to teach Carlos how to be still. After Don Juan finally convinced Carlos that his note taking (a doing) was hindering Carlos' understanding, he got Carlos to stop taking notes, but then Don Juan realized that not taking notes was an even worse hindrance.

Mad Dawg says, "Learning how to be still could take a lifetime. (And even after that lifetime of struggle, it'll still be Grace that taught and Grace that let you learn."

Yes, true. As long as we think "it" is about our "doings", it is.

And so it's at that area of thinking about pastroral care and "moral theology" (as distinct from ethics and morality) naturally lends itself to language that focusses on the subjective. And it SOUNDS like we're talking about works, works considered as somehow autonomous.

I have to confess, I read through the rest of this response of yours & am caught up in your use of "doing an original proof in geometry" analogy?. A portion of my previous response to you involved something like , "Grace is a plane", but because of the time limits I was dealing with, that part got sent to the cutting room floor.

Our free will places us above or below the plane. I think I'm going out on a limb when I say your position would be equivalent to man having an ability to pierce the plane as he moves from above the plane to below it and visa versa, while mine says that it is God that causes every single piercing of the plane. We might delude ourselves into thinking we're the ones doing it, but in truth, if we're using free will, we're not on that plane.

There IS some kind of effort, or subjective perception of effort, in, say, paying attention when I read the Bible. I mean I can think about, Oh, I don't know, my new kitty, Clint, and the local sheriff's election, both of which fascinate and divert me, or I can kind of gather myself, do a mini act of penitence (just plain "Sorrow", would be a better term) for being so labile and unfocussed and, once again, turn to my reading, asking God to steer my alertness and thought and such.

I ask for the steering, without the guilt.

As a mom who occasionally used the phrase, "you can help by watching", while my sons were growing up, I think most of my attempts to "help" are probably seen by our Father in much the same way.

But, at the end it will be God's Spirit in me reading God's word, and at the end I simply cannot say,"Wow, I'm a good little boy, I read my bobble!"

Correct.

Still there was that, as I say, subjective perception of effort.

You try to do more than help by watching, you might end up with cake batter all over the ceiling, floor, the walls, the table and yourself.

Go ahead: Try to stop trying ..... Try to stop trying to stop trying. It's sumpin like trying to breath at a normal rate while thinking about it.

Have I given my Have I given my "doing an original proof in geometry" analogy?

I don't think I've heard that one. Do I have to remember any theorems? Will I find myself stuck in circular thinking with no way out?

How important is it (and how is it important) to build the altar HERE before the fire falls over there?

I dunno, cuz I've no idea where HERE or there are.

[Salvation]

I didn’t know this at all. Would you like to have me send it to the Prayer Warriors? You would get Private Freepmails.

May the Lord hold you in his hand and heal the cancer within your body. Amen.
Salvation

[Mad Dawg]

Don't over do the guilt aspect of what I said, please. It's not like I haul out the flagellum. I think repentance is life-long and continual and is enabled by and leads to joy. There is a keeping track aspect. But guilt is just as much an ego trip as anything else.

LOVE the Don Juan story! Doing - no good. NOT doing - even worse! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

The Geometry example: So, the teacher gives you an "original". that means a theorem not in the book that you have to prove all by yo'se'f.

So you try this. No deal. You try that. Nothing. You desperately try the other, knowing already it's not going to work. Pretty soon it's just you, the theorem, and frustration bordering on despair.

Been there? Done that? For a year or two writing sermons was like that for me.

Then, "out of the blue" "it comes to you". And those are the phrases we often use. We don't' say,"I figured it out," we say,"It came to me," as if it were somewhere, but finally disclosed itself to us. With respect to it, we are passive, mere recipients. We may "grasp" it as it comes, but it comes to us.

Now up until that moment, at least with respect to the theorem, we were not free, we were bound. But when it comes, our assent to it, made almost unconsciously, is not made with a struggle or a long deliberation. We WILL, if we are careful students, check it out and work through it. But we do so in confidence, knowing that this is just tidying up, crossing 'i's and dotting 't's, as I like to say.

But the point, and I do have one, is that our wills and intellects, can be almost as it were ravished by the truth, and they yield to it enthusiastically and with joy, but this not a loss of freedom but a coming into freedom.

And while it SEEMS that the arrival of the truth needed to be preceded by the anguish and futile efforts, still when it comes, we do not say (at least I don't) that the anguish earned the truth, anymore than being captive earns a rescuer.

And this is way I zealously avoid the predestination/election/free will conversations. It seems to me the terms of discourse are usually misleading and steer us right by the gift of freedom which comes with the Truth's self-disclosure.

One of my almost sisters in the lay Dominicans has an unbelieving husband with cancer who is now enduring chemo. I'll suggest the peppermint patty or other mouth delight approach.

[GoLightly]

I didn’t know this at all.

I had no need for everyone around here to know. I figured those who were interested enough in me because of something that I've posted would check my homepage & quite a few people have done that.

Would you like to have me send it to the Prayer Warriors? You would get Private Freepmails.

Thank you for the offer. Someone else offered awhile ago & I told them it was up to them one way or the other, but if I got flooded with FReepmails, they'd have to handle some of the responses for me. LOL

May the Lord hold you in his hand and heal the cancer within your body. Amen.

Thank you Salvation. Your prayer for me is much appreciated.

[WileyPink]

Well, I'm very stupid, and almost always defeated by things which present themselves as self-explanatory.

Don't be so hard on yourself. If you throw away the council of Trent and all the other 'stuff', you'll find that Holy Scripture alone will answer all of your questions.

Happy Reformation Day yesterday, by the way.

In Christ,

[GoLightly]

Don't over do the guilt aspect of what I said, please. It's not like I haul out the flagellum. I think repentance is life-long and continual and is enabled by and leads to joy. There is a keeping track aspect. But guilt is just as much an ego trip as anything else.

It is an ego trip, a path I was following for quite some time, though in the area of relationships, not my faith. It's one of my buttons, so when I see it, bells & lights go off.

LOVE the Don Juan story! Doing - no good. NOT doing - even worse!

Don Juan was an Amerindian wise man. Castanada's series about his teachings drew in a lot of readers who were involved in the "drug scene", because Castanada's original thesis had to do with use of hilucinatives by native American shamans. Most of Castanda's early notes were about preparing the drugs, as were most of his questions to Don Juan. Don Juan was laughing at Carlos about it, because he could see how much Carlos was missing the boat. "Mescalito" selected Carlos as Don Juan's pupil, despite Carlos being pretty much of a mess.

I read the books about three decades ago & keep meaning to read them again, because some of the teachings have stayed with me. And no, I was no longer doing any kind of drugs when I read the books the first time around. Don Juan called that being still thing "stopping the world" & it involved "seeing", specifically through the cracks in the universe.

Something that bothered me in Don Juan's teachings involved women with children having "holes" that prevented them from gaining knowledge, but after having children half a decade later, it all made sense to me. Children bind us to the world, most of our "doings" become wrapped up in them & no, I'm not saying that no men do the same or that all women do.

Who will deliver me from this body of death?

I think you know.

Gotta run. I'll get to the rest tonight, but before I go...

One of my almost sisters in the lay Dominicans has an unbelieving husband with cancer who is now enduring chemo. I'll suggest the peppermint patty or other mouth delight approach.

Chemo does something to our taste buds. Besides the candy, I stoped eating & drinking some things. I switched from Cherry Pepsi to grape soda. The first batch of chemo had me craving corned beef on rye & I hadn't eaten that for ages. Ditto butterscotch pudding. Most people report that coffee tastes yucky. Tell your sis to send him to the store, cuz that's where he'd see things that might appeal to him, things that he might not otherwise come up with.

[Missey_Lucy_Goosey]

Don't be so hard on yourself. If you throw away the council of Trent and all the other 'stuff'...

They cannot do that, pride won't allow it, for then would be the admission that RCism has been a fraud all this time.