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To: Mad Dawg
Blessings on the chemo, and if you think I'm going to attempt Aquinas while "running the store", you crazy, woman!

Thanx! My system seems to breeze through the chemo... soon as I realized my worst symptoms were coming from stuff that was given to me to deal with symptoms, I quit taking any of the "cures" & started eating candy that covered the yucky taste in my mouth. First kinda chemo needed peppermint patties & the one that I'm on now needs gummy orange slices.

We'll have to get back to Aquinas later.

A big part of the confusion, I've thought for decades is like this: Moses says, wonderfully, "The Lord will fight for you and you have only to be still."

This reminds me of Don Juan's teachings to Carlos Castanada. Our doings confirm our preconceived notions about the universe, tie us to it. Don Juan tried many different strategies to teach Carlos how to be still. After Don Juan finally convinced Carlos that his note taking (a doing) was hindering Carlos' understanding, he got Carlos to stop taking notes, but then Don Juan realized that not taking notes was an even worse hindrance.

Mad Dawg says, "Learning how to be still could take a lifetime. (And even after that lifetime of struggle, it'll still be Grace that taught and Grace that let you learn."

Yes, true. As long as we think "it" is about our "doings", it is.

And so it's at that area of thinking about pastroral care and "moral theology" (as distinct from ethics and morality) naturally lends itself to language that focusses on the subjective. And it SOUNDS like we're talking about works, works considered as somehow autonomous.

I have to confess, I read through the rest of this response of yours & am caught up in your use of "doing an original proof in geometry" analogy?. A portion of my previous response to you involved something like , "Grace is a plane", but because of the time limits I was dealing with, that part got sent to the cutting room floor.

Our free will places us above or below the plane. I think I'm going out on a limb when I say your position would be equivalent to man having an ability to pierce the plane as he moves from above the plane to below it and visa versa, while mine says that it is God that causes every single piercing of the plane. We might delude ourselves into thinking we're the ones doing it, but in truth, if we're using free will, we're not on that plane.

There IS some kind of effort, or subjective perception of effort, in, say, paying attention when I read the Bible. I mean I can think about, Oh, I don't know, my new kitty, Clint, and the local sheriff's election, both of which fascinate and divert me, or I can kind of gather myself, do a mini act of penitence (just plain "Sorrow", would be a better term) for being so labile and unfocussed and, once again, turn to my reading, asking God to steer my alertness and thought and such.

I ask for the steering, without the guilt.

As a mom who occasionally used the phrase, "you can help by watching", while my sons were growing up, I think most of my attempts to "help" are probably seen by our Father in much the same way.

But, at the end it will be God's Spirit in me reading God's word, and at the end I simply cannot say,"Wow, I'm a good little boy, I read my bobble!"

Correct.

Still there was that, as I say, subjective perception of effort.

You try to do more than help by watching, you might end up with cake batter all over the ceiling, floor, the walls, the table and yourself.

Go ahead: Try to stop trying ..... Try to stop trying to stop trying. It's sumpin like trying to breath at a normal rate while thinking about it.

Have I given my Have I given my "doing an original proof in geometry" analogy?

I don't think I've heard that one. Do I have to remember any theorems? Will I find myself stuck in circular thinking with no way out?

How important is it (and how is it important) to build the altar HERE before the fire falls over there?

I dunno, cuz I've no idea where HERE or there are.

114 posted on 10/31/2007 8:01:54 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly
Don't over do the guilt aspect of what I said, please. It's not like I haul out the flagellum. I think repentance is life-long and continual and is enabled by and leads to joy. There is a keeping track aspect. But guilt is just as much an ego trip as anything else.

LOVE the Don Juan story! Doing - no good. NOT doing - even worse! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

The Geometry example: So, the teacher gives you an "original". that means a theorem not in the book that you have to prove all by yo'se'f.

So you try this. No deal. You try that. Nothing. You desperately try the other, knowing already it's not going to work. Pretty soon it's just you, the theorem, and frustration bordering on despair.

Been there? Done that? For a year or two writing sermons was like that for me.

Then, "out of the blue" "it comes to you". And those are the phrases we often use. We don't' say,"I figured it out," we say,"It came to me," as if it were somewhere, but finally disclosed itself to us. With respect to it, we are passive, mere recipients. We may "grasp" it as it comes, but it comes to us.

Now up until that moment, at least with respect to the theorem, we were not free, we were bound. But when it comes, our assent to it, made almost unconsciously, is not made with a struggle or a long deliberation. We WILL, if we are careful students, check it out and work through it. But we do so in confidence, knowing that this is just tidying up, crossing 'i's and dotting 't's, as I like to say.

But the point, and I do have one, is that our wills and intellects, can be almost as it were ravished by the truth, and they yield to it enthusiastically and with joy, but this not a loss of freedom but a coming into freedom.

And while it SEEMS that the arrival of the truth needed to be preceded by the anguish and futile efforts, still when it comes, we do not say (at least I don't) that the anguish earned the truth, anymore than being captive earns a rescuer.

And this is way I zealously avoid the predestination/election/free will conversations. It seems to me the terms of discourse are usually misleading and steer us right by the gift of freedom which comes with the Truth's self-disclosure.

One of my almost sisters in the lay Dominicans has an unbelieving husband with cancer who is now enduring chemo. I'll suggest the peppermint patty or other mouth delight approach.

116 posted on 11/01/2007 4:46:19 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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