Posted on 10/28/2007 5:11:19 PM PDT by pinochet
I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.
According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?
If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?
[[You are equating our past salvation, our acceptance of Jesus Christ and projecting that same salvation event into the future salvation event, entering heaven. They are NOT the same event, nor does the former guarantee the latter.]]
Jokus- God tells us that the saved’s names are written in the Lambs book of life- it’s a done deal.
[[ Really, how are you going to explain away so many Bible verses that talk about losing inheritance, returning to the former life of sin, and losing the Blood of Christ - AND STILL claim they are saved for heaven?]]
I’m afraid it’s not me fitting an ideology to scriptures, Christ Clearly states that it is NOT through works that we are saved, but that it is entirely a gift of God- with no ‘strings attached’ so that man can NEVER boast of his own salvation. Christ went into great depth talking about being freed from the law- the same law that condemned the Jews when they slipped up, and made a very clear point about the law being done away with in regards to salvation. Under the old law, man did have to work to keep from sinning in order to be saved, and had to keep giving sacrifices, but when you examine the Apostles words and Christs, you will clearly see that the final sacrifice has doen away with hte law- why? So that NO man can EVER boast that he has saved himself. What you propose is that we can indeed boast of our salvation by always walking upright and making sure we never sin and always ask forgiveness so that we won’t lose our salvation when we do sin- You are putting us BACK UNDER the law that Christ’s death abolished.
Hebrews 6: 4-6 state the following that if we could lose our salvation, then we could NEVER AGAIN regain salvation-
4 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.
So, if we can NEVER be restored, the EVERY PERSON would be lost and go to Hell because EVERY PERSON continually sins- there are no degrees of sin- sin is sin, and ANY sin could result in lost salvation IF losing salvation were a possibility. EVERY sin is a turning away from God- A willful act of defiance to God. We know we shouldn’t, but we conciously make the decision to turn away from God and do the sin.
Jo Kus- if you can swing it, there is an excellent book by Charles Stanley called Eternal Security. Charles is an excellent teacher of God’s Word, and His books are always uplifting and helpful. In Eternal Security, He tackles thie often misunderstood concept of conditional salvation. I’m not trying to convert you or anything, but I think it’s a subject that is well worth exploring as the burden of Sin HAS been lifted from us once and for all, and living a life believing that we are responsible for maintaining our own salvation puts a yolk around our necks, and a heavy heavy burden on our shoulders that Christ NEVER itnended for us- here’s a link to hte book- or perhaps your local library might have it. Stanley is a trustworthy teacher, and a righteous man of God who has deep insights into God’s word http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1011693&item_no=64175
[[By turning one over to satan, as God did with Job, there is an intent to bring about repentance and return to the fold.]]
#1: God didn’t turn Job over to Satan- God simply ALLOWED Satan to buffet Job- God gave Satan permission to do that- Job was still God’s elect.
#2: Job wasn’t Buffetted in order to ‘bring him to repentence’, Job continually blessed hte name of God in the face of severe difficulty when EVERYONE around him was telling him to just give up, to curse God and die, to get the suffering over with.
The lesson of Job is that He NEVER quit trusting God no matter what came his way. His freinds all INCORRECTLY assumed Job was getting what he deserved, and that Job MUST have done something wrong in his life in order to be suffering so much sorrow and pain, yet, this was clearly NOT the case- the lesson of Job is that we don’t serve God to get ‘good things’ in l;ife, we serve God because we love and Honor our Creator- REGARDLESS of our circumstances. Satan di His best to get Job to fall- to curse God and die, but Satan FAILED!
The lesson from Job establishes the complete justice of God in dealing with His creations as He sees fit and not in how we see fit. He blesses whom He will when He so desires, and He allows destruction when He so desires for His own grand purposes. That was a lesson Job and the other wise men needed to learn. While Job did trust God through it all, he did have a quite common response in that he questioned why he was going through it- He in essence Questioned God’s sovereign right to deal with His creations as He saw fit.
God didn’t answer Job’s questions, but instead, He fired off 70 questions to Job and the others and asked them if they were wise enough to question Him. Job had questioned what it was about him that caused him to suffer so at the direction of God- God pointed out quite dramatically that it was NOTHING in Job that caused ANYTHING, but rather that it was the good will of God that Job should suffer.
Shall we fall away when we suffer? Shall we blame God? Job didn’t, and he passed the test quite admirably under them ost horrendous circumstances you can imagine! Suffering is NOT always somethign that happens as a result of somethign we’ve done- Sometimes it is simply to show us quite dramatically that God is Soveriegn and has the perfectly soveriegn right to do as He sees fit in our lives- including suffering.
The other obvious lesson from Job was that it is NOT what we do that saves us, but it is what God has done through the blood of Christ.
Job and his friends came to the humanistic conclusion that it was something Job MUST have done that brought on such troubles, because the huma mind is stuck on the idea that we deserve rewards and punishments based on what we do- We have a sense of universal law that we simply can’t seem to shake- We think: We do good, we get rewarded, we do bad, we get punished.
The lesson of Job is that this is NOT the case! God does EVERYTHING- it is ALL Him! Not us. He does so for His good pleasure, and He holds us and has inscribed our names on the palm of His hand for all eternity- That inscription can NOT be undone! Losing our salvation puts us right back into the line of erronious thinking that Job and his freinds experienced when Job suffered, that is that we must be responsible for our standing with God! We are NOT! By thinking we are- we put ourselves right back under the law- just as does the idea that we somehow are responsible for keeping our own salvation intact. It is pride to think that we are responsible for our own salvation’s keeping.
Thanks!
I’ve learned something today!
Ok... I'm ready to learn something else.
You are correct....when you are "born again" at the resurrection. As Paul puts it: [1 Corinthians 15:51-52] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We agree that salvation will at some point become permanent, it is a matter of when.
That's what the change is.....being reborn as an immortal spirit being.....born again....resurrected to life eternal.
Luke 10:20
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Well, first of all, eternal life IS Jesus Christ. It is not a state, it is the God-man HIMSELF. We gain "eternal Life" when we accept the Lord. However, we can refuse to remain in a relationship with the Lord. Thus, eternal life begins even now, but it does not guarantee eternal life in heaven.
Regarding Matthew 7, obviously, that is a hyperbolic exaggeration. Who does miracles in the Lord's name? WHO grants these miracles? Naturally, God does. At one point, the presumptive Christian WAS in a relationship with the Lord, but for whatever reason, became proud, which is the description Jesus uses again and again in Mat 5-7. He compares the "presumptive Pharisees" who thought THEY had a great relationship with God with what the TRUE man of faith should act.
Even if we go with your interpretation that "I never knew you" to be literal, what does that say about your "salvation"? Maybe the Lord will say the same about you and your "salvation" is thus not very secure at all.
It is God who gives the gift of salvation and he knows better than to give it to someone who could not keep it.
Then why did Christ die for ALL men? According to you, it was a waste, since most will not accept Jesus as the Christ. When one loves, they love unconditionally, even if the other refuses to love in return. This whole idea that God gives gifts only to SOME is false. God's gifts rain down on ALL men. HOW could He ask us to love our enemies if HE didn't???
Regards
"The flesh" does not refer to the meat of our body, OR the soul within us. In Paul's useage, the "flesh" vs. the "spirit" refers to WHOM do we please. It goes back to Psalm 1. Which way will we go? Follow the passions of desire and the lower self, or follow the ways of God's Spirit, of obeying the commandments and loving others despite the inconvience it causes. Paul is asking us to follow the Spirit, not the Flesh, which has nothing to do with our meat or our soul. Our soul ALSO can choose the ways of the Spirit.
The soul is designed to direct the body, and the spirit is designed (originally in obedience to God) to direct the soul. When Satan told Eve that disobeying God she would not 'die', his lie was a parsing of what God had instructed the first couple ... Satan’s ploy was she would die in spirit (have a dead spirit) but not immediately in the flesh (the soul and body).
The soul directs the body for good or for evil. Paul tells us to follow the ways of the Spirit, meaning not our personal spirit, but God's Spirit within us. However, we can clearly use this same soul to direct our actions towards sin.
As for the comment regarding Job, perhaps you would like to reread the Book of Job ... God did not deliver Job for punishment due. Surely that was not your implied reasoning?
No, God didn't. God delivered Job to Satan for His own purposes. Certainly, God will deliver evil-doers to Satan for the man to realize, just as Job did, that God is supreme and God's ways are beyond our ways.
Regards
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
pax vobiscum
[[When one loves, they love unconditionally, even if the other refuses to love in return.]]
God’s love is open to all- we all have the free will to accept His love or not- His love is Salvation- we however have the choice to accept Him or not. There is God’s perfect will and God’s allowed will- His perfect will is that everyone should accept His love freely, however, His allowed will, because He infact DOES love us is that we should have the free will to accept or reject His love.
Also- the Pharisses were NOT ever saved- they relied on the law to save them and Christ goes to great lengths to show them that they were never saved and that works will never save and lead to the very thing He preached about- being boastful of their good works.
[[Even if we go with your interpretation that “I never knew you” to be literal, what does that say about your “salvation”?]]
Christ did know us- when we accepted Him at Salvation- Those who don’t accept Him in Salvation obviously Christ would say He ‘never knew’ them. Our salvation is secure inthat Christ Knows us, knows His own and we share in His inheritence as laid out in God’s word- now and forever.
Then why did Christ die for ALL men? According to you, it was a waste, since most will not accept Jesus as the Christ.
We are told that some will not repent (Revelation 16:9 & 11) That does not mean that God has wasted anything.
Seven
God's Word also tells us that names can be blotted out of the book of Life.
I’m afraid it’s not me fitting an ideology to scriptures, Christ Clearly states that it is NOT through works that we are saved, but that it is entirely a gift of God- with no ‘strings attached’ so that man can NEVER boast of his own salvation
I don't believe I ever said otherwise. You are getting off topic. My point of contention is your belief that man is saved by once and for all by accepting Jesus as their savior at some point in the past and no matter what happens, they are going to heaven. This is un-Scriptural, as I have pointed out. I didn't say anything about earning salvation - although you CAN earn LOSING it.
Hebrews 6: 4-6 state the following that if we could lose our salvation, then we could NEVER AGAIN regain salvation
That's hyperbole. Paul cannot believe that a person would fall away to the point of going to their former life and then repenting again. However, God has told us that He would forgive seven times seventy times, so IF a man fell away, became atheist, and then later in life, returned and repented, what proof do you have that God would not forgive this man?
IF losing salvation were a possibility. EVERY sin is a turning away from God- A willful act of defiance to God. We know we shouldn’t, but we conciously make the decision to turn away from God and do the sin.
Willful sin that is greivous is called "mortal" sin, or as John says, deadly. It ruins our relationship with God. But as I said before, a repentant person can again regain that relationship with God. That's the Good News of the Gospel - REPENT!
I’m not trying to convert you or anything, but I think it’s a subject that is well worth exploring as the burden of Sin HAS been lifted from us once and for all, and living a life believing that we are responsible for maintaining our own salvation puts a yolk around our necks.
Yes, the burden is light, as Christ has said. It is not removed. Why do you think Paul said "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling"? We are responsible for our actions. We are responsible for persevering. That is a major theme of Scriptures. Is that a difficult burden? Not while in Christ it isn't.
Regards
The Pharisees as a group were not "unsaved", as Scriptures tells us that "some" believed, even before Christ's crucifixion. What Christ was teaching was that most of the Pharisees were forgetting mercy and love and forgiveness in their attempts to follow the letter of the Law. Christ did NOT come to REMOVE the Law, but to fulfill it. As the Bible tells us, good fruits is a sign of proper faith in God, a faith that men and women displayed even before Christ became incarnate.
Christ did know us- when we accepted Him at Salvation- Those who don’t accept Him in Salvation obviously Christ would say He ‘never knew’ them. Our salvation is secure inthat Christ Knows us, knows His own and we share in His inheritence as laid out in God’s word- now and forever.
I'm sure that those people Christ speaks about in Matthew 7 thought the same thing you are saying... "I accepted Jesus as my savior, I did great miracles in His name, cast out demons, ate with Him, etc..." And what happened?
You should consider reading Matthew 5-7. Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall not obtain the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ then goes on to tell us HOW our righteousness will exceed the Pharisees in this section. Our faith working in love, simple as that. Those who are presumptive, like the charecters Jesus describes in Mat 7 will NOT enter the Kingdom. That is why the "OSAS" gospel is false. It leads to presumption, that God now owes you because of one moment in time... The Bible speaks often against this idea.
Regards
Have you thought about plucking out your eye or cutting off your hand?
God speaks through human authors who use different literal genres. It is important to realize that. Men write with different styles, sometimes as narratives, sometimes in parables, sometimes in poetry. Yes, we look at the literal first, but sometimes, we understand that the human writer didn't mean something literally.
We are told that some will not repent (Revelation 16:9 & 11) That does not mean that God has wasted anything.
Yet God still offers forgiveness and His expiating death on the cross for those men who CHOOSE not to use it. Of course it was not wasted. But men have free will. In the end, these men will have no one but themselves to blame, since God gave them sufficient graces and opportunity to come to Him. Thus, His efforts are not wasted. They are sometimes not appreciated, though.
Regards
There seems to be a lot of confusion on WHEN a person is actually saved in the Protestant camp. Is it when a person first receives Jesus into their life or not? If so, why do people later deny that one who fell away were never saved to begin with? Apparently, there is something OTHER than making an altar call...
Regards
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