Posted on 10/28/2007 5:11:19 PM PDT by pinochet
I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.
According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?
If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?
Would you ... just to get technical for a moment ... would you say that a once saved man marrying and having sex with his Mother would warrant losing his salvation?
According to Paul, he COULD. Paul turned him (1 Cor 5) over to satan so that he MAY repent - not that he WOULD repent.
Regards
[[Not true. Clearly, we can LOSE our inheritance to heaven.]]
Not true- We are not unclean- we are cleansed in the blood of Christ- The lamb- the Perfect Lamb died just for the purpose of cleansing once for all- In the old testament the Jews had to keep giving sacrifices several times a year because the sacrifices were not perfect- they were fallen sacrifices- Christ was perfect and His shed blood- His perfect blood, to once for all cover sin
[[Note, this is written by Paul right after he says we are sealed by the Spirit. This answers your idea that being sealed means we cannot lose our inheritance. Paul is writing to those who had been sealed]]
I’m sorry Elsie- but Paul is talking about hte whoremongerers who are not saved that can’t enter heaven, and he is exhorting the saved not to walk like them- He did not mention that the saved will lose their salvation in that verse- Read it carefully. Paul has already identified the ‘unrighteous’ as unbelievers
[[For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries”. Heb 10:26-27]]
Elsie- thios is why a VERY careful reading of God’s word is necessary. Paul is talking to those who are not saved, who received a ‘head knowledge’ and not a ‘heart salvation/conversion’
This is from Gill: “After that we have received the knowledge of the truth; either of Jesus Christ, or of the Scriptures, or of the Gospel, or of some particular doctrine, especially the principal one, salvation by Christ; of which there may be a notional knowledge, when there is no experimental knowledge; and which is received not into the heart, but into the head: and whereas the apostle speaks in the first person plural, we, this is used not so much with regard to himself, but others; that so what he delivered might come with greater weight upon them, and be more readily received by them; when they observed he entertained no hard thoughts or jealousies of them, which would greatly distress the minds of those that were truly gracious. Moreover, the apostles use this way of speaking, when they do not design themselves at all, but others, under the same visible profession of religion, and who belonged to the same community of believers; see 1Pe_4:3 compared with Act_22:3. Besides, these words are only hypothetical, and do not prove that true believers could, or should, or do sin in this manner: to which may be added, that true believers are manifestly distinguished from these persons, Heb_10:38,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion; but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation, as follows”
[[But can one reject the gift? Or give it back as it were?
That is what mortal sin is. You turn your face from God, and reject Him.]]
No, one can not- One can indeed think he has, but he hasn’t lost the inherritence- He HAS however lost the rewards of higher sanctification
[[Back it up or concede the debate!]
You take Go’ds word out of context, Apply meanings to Words of His that are NOT meant by the original, and you want me to ‘conceed’ the debate? Lol- whatever- I won’t argue with such assininity!
Wooops- I apologize- Had Elsie’s name on the brain for some reason- I was replying to you- sorry for hte confusion
Wow- I’m messing up big time tonight- lol Doh! My long response was to you, not Elsie- sorry for hte further confusion lol
The flesh is the soul (behavior mechanism) and the body. The spirit of the one in question 'may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.' The delivering up for the destruction of the flesh is to separate the offender from the congregation, to prevent his presence harming their fellowship (think Jimmy Swaggert).
You clued in on the proper verse but missed the significance. The offender is presumed by Paul to be among the elect, and he advises to put the one out of the congregation so the flesh may be destroyed but the spirit saved. Connect that verse with the one where Paul states that works may be burned up but the spirit saved as by fire.
[[A covenant is a relationship between God and man]
No- the covenant was between God and Christ- not God and man
[[It doesn’t say that I cannot turn away from salvation. Clearly, men do JUST THAT!]]
Noone is arguing that they can’t turn away- however, they still have not lost their salvation
[[Our final judgment is based on our response to God’s graces,]]
No I’m afraid that’s not true and is exactly what Christ warned against “Lest any man should boast”
If you lose your salvation, then it is not eternal. If you have eternal life, you cannot die.
Seven
I think it’s the two words combined together that is a bit confusing:
Eternal
and
Salvation.
Do not hook them together.
Do not hook them together.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
We are talking apples and oranges, I think. You are equating our past salvation, our acceptance of Jesus Christ and projecting that same salvation event into the future salvation event, entering heaven. They are NOT the same event, nor does the former guarantee the latter. When Catholics speak of "salvation", they generally are refering to heaven. THAT salvation is eternal. The salvation when we first receive Christ is freedom from the slavery of sins, redemption, being healed from sin. There is no guarantee that a person will not fall away and return to the vomit of their former life. Thus, the confusion.
Accepting Jesus as you savior ten years ago does not guarantee eternal life in heaven 10 years from now. Many will say "Lord, Lord", and Jesus will say you were not known and they will be condemned. Consider reading Matthew 7:21-24.
Regards
First, I am Catholic, so I do not know much about Jimmy Swaggert. All I know is that in his mind, I am going to hell. So please forgive me if I do not consider his opinion authoritative (or of any concern) for me.
Secondly, the flesh is not the soul and the body. while I agree that the point of excommunication is to separate the offending cell from the Body to prevent scandal, its PRIMARY intent is to hope that the person repents and RETURNS to the Body of Christ. By handing one over to the devil, it implies that this person underwent trials and tribulations, the intent to bring about sorrow and a calling upon the Lord for help. THAT, my friend, is when we are most LIKELY to call upon God - during trials and tribulations. By turning one over to satan, as God did with Job, there is an intent to bring about repentance and return to the fold.
Regards
Jesus is the Mediator of the Covenant. God didn't make a covenant with Himself. Do you recall the first Covenant? Were not the People of God involved?
Noone is arguing that they can’t turn away- however, they still have not lost their salvation
I heartily disagree. Scripture are full of people "losing their inheritance" once promised because they turned away. I could post DOZENS of such Scriptures. As a matter of fact, there is at least one such verse in nearly every book of the New Testament. To deny that salvation can be lost is to deny what God's Word says over and over again.
It is crystal clear that Hebrews 10:26-27 says, for example, that there is NO SACRIFICE for the one who willfully sins. How is such a person going to heaven? I thought that one could go to heaven only through Christ's blood. Now, if you insist that a person is once saved-always saved, HOW does a person receive salvation If they have no blood of Christ to wash sins away? You are clearly missing the point of the verses I have posted and are not thinking them through.
Rather than being a servant of the Word, accepting what is said, you are taking a theology, "Once saved always saved", and forcing the rest of Scriptures to fit it. If something doesn't fit, you explain it away or pretend it isn't there. Really, how are you going to explain away so many Bible verses that talk about losing inheritance, returning to the former life of sin, and losing the Blood of Christ - AND STILL claim they are saved for heaven?
Once saved always saved is a false gospel that the devil preaches so that people can become lax in their walk with Christ, rather than persevering and 'working out one's salvation in fear and trembling'. Be careful, because the devil is a lion, just waiting for Christians to drop their guard down and lead them back into the slavery of sin.
Regards
We agree that salvation will at some point become permanent, it is a matter of when. You are saying that eternal life does not begin until after you die. I will argue that is starts when you are born(again). Note that Matthew 7:23 the phrase "I never knew you. could indicate that there was never any provisional salvation given.
Rom.11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.It is God who gives the gift of salvation and he knows better than to give it to someone who could not keep it.
The sin nature is precisely the fallen flesh we inherited from Adam, and that flesh is the body and the behavior mechanism (the soul). In the Book of Genesis, we learn that the nephesh is the animal life of body and soul; the Adam nature, the neshamah, before the fall is the nephesh + the LIFE aspect God breathed into Adam which died in the day that he disobeyed God. The spirit can be 'dead'(lacking LIFE as it comes from God's Spirit) while the body/soul is still walking around, as Jesus showed with His discernment to 'let the dead go bury the dead.'
Perhaps you and I are using different terms for the same thing ... I use spirit, soul, and body, as Paul did when offering his blessing:
I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [KJV]
The soul is designed to direct the body, and the spirit is designed (originally in obedience to God) to direct the soul. When Satan told Eve that disobeying God she would not 'die', his lie was a parsing of what God had instructed the first couple ... Satan’s ploy was she would die in spirit (have a dead spirit) but not immediately in the flesh (the soul and body).
As for the comment regarding Job, perhaps you would like to reread the Book of Job ... God did not deliver Job for punishment due. Surely that was not your implied reasoning?
The sin nature is precisely the fallen flesh we inherited from Adam, and that flesh is the body and the behavior mechanism (the soul). In the Book of Genesis, we learn that the nephesh is the animal life of body and soul; the Adam nature, the neshamah, before the fall is the nephesh + the LIFE aspect God breathed into Adam which died in the day that he disobeyed God. The spirit can be 'dead'(lacking LIFE as it comes from God's Spirit) while the body/soul is still walking around, as Jesus showed with His discernment to 'let the dead go bury the dead.'
Perhaps you and I are using different terms for the same thing ... I use spirit, soul, and body, as Paul did when offering his blessing:
I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [KJV]
The soul is designed to direct the body, and the spirit is designed (originally in obedience to God) to direct the soul. When Satan told Eve that disobeying God she would not 'die', his lie was a parsing of what God had instructed the first couple ... Satan’s ploy was she would die in spirit (have a dead spirit) but not immediately in the flesh (the soul and body).
As for the comment regarding Job, perhaps you would like to reread the Book of Job ... God did not deliver Job for punishment due. Surely that was not your implied reasoning?
The sin nature is precisely the fallen flesh we inherited from Adam, and that flesh is the body and the behavior mechanism (the soul). In the Book of Genesis, we learn that the nephesh is the animal life of body and soul; the Adam nature, the neshamah, before the fall is the nephesh + the LIFE aspect God breathed into Adam which died in the day that he disobeyed God. The spirit can be 'dead'(lacking LIFE as it comes from God's Spirit) while the body/soul is still walking around, as Jesus showed with His discernment to 'let the dead go bury the dead.'
Perhaps you and I are using different terms for the same thing ... I use spirit, soul, and body, as Paul did when offering his blessing:
I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [KJV]
The soul is designed to direct the body, and the spirit is designed (originally in obedience to God) to direct the soul. When Satan told Eve that disobeying God she would not 'die', his lie was a parsing of what God had instructed the first couple ... Satan’s ploy was she would die in spirit (have a dead spirit) but not immediately in the flesh (the soul and body).
As for the comment regarding Job, perhaps you would like to reread the Book of Job ... God did not deliver Job for punishment due. Surely that was not your implied reasoning?
The sin nature is precisely the fallen flesh we inherited from Adam, and that flesh is the body and the behavior mechanism (the soul). In the Book of Genesis, we learn that the nephesh is the animal life of body and soul; the Adam nature, the neshamah, before the fall is the nephesh + the LIFE aspect God breathed into Adam which died in the day that he disobeyed God. The spirit can be 'dead'(lacking LIFE as it comes from God's Spirit) while the body/soul is still walking around, as Jesus showed with His discernment to 'let the dead go bury the dead.'
Perhaps you and I are using different terms for the same thing ... I use spirit, soul, and body, as Paul did when offering his blessing:
I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [KJV]
The soul is designed to direct the body, and the spirit is designed (originally in obedience to God) to direct the soul. When Satan told Eve that disobeying God she would not 'die', his lie was a parsing of what God had instructed the first couple ... Satan’s ploy was she would die in spirit (have a dead spirit) but not immediately in the flesh (the soul and body).
As for the comment regarding Job, perhaps you would like to reread the Book of Job ... God did not deliver Job for punishment due. Surely that was not your implied reasoning?
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