Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54
An article is circulating around the Internet that carries the title “Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog.” It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel National News.1 The article begins with the following prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and fundamentalist end-time assurances about the end:
US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.
M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs of the coming of Christ.”2 In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These.3 His chapter on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969. Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting. This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being set for what could explode into World War III at any moment.”4 In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, followed a similar prophetic script:
Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description of Gog perfectly.5
This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy. The question is, does the Bible teach it?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel. Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that “the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage [Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some suspect that it may be on our horizon.”6 Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century, the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice. In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the end-time bad guys.7 In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the forces of Magog-France.8 For most of the twentieth century, Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations in the past is legion.9
As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change, the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence that modern-day prophecy writers are not “profiling the future through the lens of Scripture” but through the ever-changing headlines of the evening news.10
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.
The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are made of wood (39:10), and it is these abandoned weapons that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9). Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when the antichrist rises to power to rule the world. “A wave of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . . The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . . [T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control the world.”11 How does this assessment of the near prophetic future square with a supposed tribulation period when Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood from the forests”? (39:10). There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears. And what is the Russian air force after? Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12–13). In what modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle? How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?12
Chuck Missler attempts to get around the description of ancient war implements by claiming that the various Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that could be describing a mechanized force.”13 The word translated “horse,” “actually means leaper” that “can also mean bird, or even chariot-rider.” He tells us that the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic term for any weapon or destroying instrument.” In a similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as a missile.” We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the [missile].”14 Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500 years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators, breaks all the rules of exegesis.
2. M. R. DeHaan, Signs of the Times and other Prophetic Messages (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1951), 74.
3. Carl G. Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).
4. Jack Van Impe, The Coming War With Russia (Old Time Gospel Hour Press, n.d.). The quotation is taken from a message that Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple, Canton, Ohio. The talk was recorded and available on a as an LP. Quoted in Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These, 82–83.
5. From an address that Ronald Reagan gave at a dinner with California legislators in 1971. Quoted in Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Culture (Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University, 1992), 162.
6. Chuck Missler, Prophecy 20/20: Profiling the Future Through the Lens of Scripture (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2006), 155.
7. Francis X. Gumerlock, The Day and the Hour: Christianity’s Perennial Fascination with Predicting the End of the World (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2000), 68.
8. T.R., “Commentary on Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Gog and Magog,” The Gentleman’s Magazine (October 1816), 307.
9. Wikipedia
10. Gary DeMar, Islam and Russia in Prophecy: The Problem of Interpreting the Bible Through the Lens of History (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2005).
11. Tim LaHaye, “The Coming Wave,” in Ed Hindson and Lee Fredrickson, Future Wave: End Times, Prophecy, and the Technological Explosion (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2001), 7–8.
12. This claim will be discussed in a later chapter.
13. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
14. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
I think
musings and leanings
are fitting to my own experience.
Given my personality . . . they seem like rather muted words but . . . that’s another issue.
Perhaps I’d call musings my ponderings.
And leanings, my convictions from prayerful podnering.
But you’re the gracious saint and I’m the . . . something in a china shop goading the other uhhhhhh donkeys to uhhhhh learn how to throw pots from the Master or get the well out of the china shop.
I think, for me, convictions . . . are my convictions. I may FEEL like others ought to share the convictions but they don’t rise to the level of clear and plain Scriptural doctrine, per se. I’m rather comfortable having my convictions rejected as not orthodox . . . at least most of the time. LOL. . . . though I may pontificate as though they are priceless gems on occasion. They do usually come with some experience with Scripture and life of Holy Spirit having confirmed them a several times.
Ponderings are more postulations, hypotheses . . . things on the theological shelf waiting to see what of them God confirms in this time/space dimension and/or eternity.
THX
LUB
BEAUTIFULLY and masterfully put, as usual.
Thx.
Actually, it does not say that at all. James was quoting directly from the Old Testament. The OT uses the phrase "after this". James is interpreting the OT prophecy (correctly) by applying it to Jesus Christ (the true Tabernacle, cf. John 1:14), and saying that since the "tabernacle has been rebuilt" (Christ raised from the dead) the result would be that many gentiles are called into the kingdom. And that is precisely what was happening in the first century and from then on.
So the phrase "after this" is from the perspective of the OT prophet. The fulfillment is in Jesus Christ and the calling of the gentiles into His kingdom
There is no futurism in Acts 15. There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT. In fact we are told that those who long for and look for earthly Jerusalem are the children of Hagar, not the children of promise "The Jerusalem above is free." (Gal. 4).
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15]
Once again your preterist presuppositions cloud the plain reading of the text. Does your Bible have the words "After this" in it? Are the words "I will return ..." yet still in the future? You preterists need to get yourself some Bibles with all the verb tenses in them -- Past, Present, and F-U-T-U-R-E.
INDEED, INDEED! Well put, Uncle Chip, on all points.
AMEN.
I apologize if I overreacted to your comments. I appreciate the spirit in which they were given.
PREPOSTEROUSLY AND OUTRAGEOUSLY WRONG.
I don't have time to track down all the NT refs . . . I will content myself with another note from Walvoord reffing the OT and mentioning many other (including NT) refs. p333 EVERY PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE
Zechariah 14:9-21. The millenial kingdom will be distinguished by the fact that the Lord, Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and King of kings will rule over the entire earth (v. 9). Included in the topographical changes will be the elevation [literal] of Jerusalem as described in verse 10. From that day forward Jerusalem will be secure and never be destroyed again.
An indication of the rule of Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords is that He will judge the nations that fought against Jerusalem (vv. 12-13). A plague will seize man and beast alike, but in the results a great quantity of gold, silver, and clothing will accrue to Israel's benefit (v14).
Those who survive the purging judgments at the beginning of the millenial kingdom will be required to worship Christ annually (v. 16). If they do not worship Him as commanded, God will hold their rain (vv. 17-19). It will be a time when the holiness of God is especially revealed, and false elements like the Canaanites will be shut out (vv. 20-21). The partial revelation of the nature of the millenial kingdom as described here was amplified in many other Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments.
ibid p 106
Isaiah 32:1-20. Israel will have 'a King' who 'will reign in righteousness and rulers will rule with justice' (v. 1). Isaiah predicted that Israel at that time would listen to His exhortation (vv. 2-8). Israel was promised severe judgment from God but ultimate restoration and deliverance (vv. 9-20). The passage concluded, 'how blessed you will be, sowing your seed by every stream, and letting your cattle and donkeys range free' (v. 20). This will be fulfilled in the Millenium (Jer. 23:5-8; Rev. 19:11-15).
To be continued.
Except for these words:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" [Acts 15]
There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT
Except for these words:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"[Acts 15]
In fact we are told that those who long for and look for earthly Jerusalem are the children of Hagar, not the children of promise "The Jerusalem above is free." (Gal. 4).
It doesn't say that at all, Here it is:
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." [Galatians 4]
The Jerusalem in that day was in bondage, not the Jerusalem that they looked for and longed for and that Jesus promised that He would return to, and restore, and rebuild, and place his throne.
Once again your explanations bear no resemblance to the text.
You are exactly right. James is explaining how the OT prophecy mentioned in Acts 15 was already being fulfilled.
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
And, since it is the Gentiles and the rest of mankind that were AT THAT MOMENT already seeking the Lord as testified by Peter we also know that the fulfillment of the rebuilding of the tabernacle had ALREADY been accomplished. The prophecy makes it clear that the gentiles seeking God would happen after the tabernacle was rebuilt.
Now, what event had recently happened which would have been the fulfillment of the rebuilding of the tabernacle? Let’s see if the dispies can figure it out.
BTW, Chip, you are still using circular logic in Acts 3 concering the times of restoration of all things. And, you still haven’t explained how the restoration of all things really doesn’t mean the restoration of all things. As Quix likes to claim: are you having trouble with the literal meaning of things?
***There is no futurism in Acts 15. ~ topcat54
Except for these words:
“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up” [Acts 15]***
Future to the OT prophet.
Past to James & Peter....
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
James is clearly declaring that they were with their own eyes seeing the fulfillment of the prophecy in the coming of the Gentiles to the Lord. And that ingrafting of gentiles was prophecied AFTER the rebuilding of the tabernacle.
So, off you now go to figure out what significant event was recently accomplished which was the fulfillment of that rebuild.....
Correct. The OT prophets were true futurists. Peter and James were "contemporarists" on the fulfillment. They witnessed the fulfillment in the person and work of Christ, and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, in particular on the gentiles who were coming to faith and being ingrafted to spiritual Israel.
"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
Now was that Jesus who tabernacled among them or David who tabernacled among them??? Hmmm.
And are you saying that the resurrected body of Jesus was "fallen down" at that time??? Hmmmm
And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm
BTW the word for "tabernacle" [skene]also means "habitation", and the place where David did his habitating [tabernacling] was/is Jerusalem, which I'm sure you are aware, has always been known as "The City of David". That is what the "tabernacle of David" means in that verse.
But the text of Acts 15 says that the ingrafting of the Gentiles is occurring BEFORE He returns to restore and rebuild the tabernacle of David. What is happening in the text before the words "After this"???
Jesus, for of Jesus and David we read:
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2)And are you saying that the resurrected body of Jesus was "fallen down" at that time??? Hmmmm
Christ tabernacled among His people (John 1:14) and was crucified, His body placed in the ground, and then raised up, thus fulfilling the prophecy, according to James in Acts 15. The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment, again according to James.
And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm
He did restore the "tabernacle of David", when He was raised from the dead and began calling the gentiles to Himself per James.
which I'm sure you are aware, has always been known as "The City of David". That is what the "tabernacle of David" means in that verse.
Regardless of what it might have meant in the OT, the apostles and elders gave us the infallible, authoritative interpretation of the Amos 9 prophecy in Acts 15 when they applied it to Jesus, His resurrection and the calling of the gentiles.
If you take this to mean some far future fulfilled in the physical city of Jerusalem, the clearly James misinterpreted the prophet and was quite incorrect in trying to apply it to a contemporary situation with the then calling of the gentiles.
11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the Lord who does this thing. (Amos 9)
We know from James in Acts 15 that the timing of "on that day" corresponds to the resurrection of Christ and the calling of the gentiles to faith in the first century and beyond.
No Jesus tabernacled among them not David. And if they were referring to his heritage at all, they would call him "Son of David" not "David".
The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment, again according to James.
You have it backwards. The restoration of the tabernacle of David is to occur after the visitation to the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name. Read the text -- it's right there plain as day.
I noticed you conveniently missed commenting on the impact of Peter words concerning Christ as the greater David in Acts 2.
If you do not take all the Bible into account you will consistently come up with the wrong answers.
Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" (Matt. 22)
Neither Amos 9 (which I quoted) nor Acts 15 (also quoted) reads that way. You are placing the cart before the futurist horse.
***But the text of Acts 15 says that the ingrafting of the Gentiles is occurring BEFORE He returns to restore and rebuild the tabernacle of David. What is happening in the text before the words “After this”???***
You are, AGAIN, reading your Eschatology into the passage instead of getting it out of the passage.
Look at what James says:
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
What does James say: THE PROPHETS AGREE with Peter.
What does Peter say: Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Gentiles hear and believe ~ Peter
The prophets agree ~ James
So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things. ~ the prophet.
James testifies that the fulfillment of the gentiles believing is occuring in the gospel preaching of Peter. You are assuming that the prophecy in Acts 15 is teaching that the “I will return” promise of the Lord is the SECOND coming of Christ. You are also assuming that the FIRST coming of Christ in the flesh is also the absolute first coming of Christ to his people.
Your Dispensational assumptions have you blind. You are just as blind as the Pharisees were when they saw the Incarnate LORD of the OT standing before them as the sum and substance of Biblical Prophecy. The Lord RETURNED to his people 2000 years ago. The LORD rebuilt the tabernacle in the person and resurrected body of Christ. The nations are coming.
Peter testified to it.
James asserted that it was just as the prophets said.
Why don’t you believe it?
And, you are still also at a quandry in Acts 3 concerning the times of the restoration of ALL THINGS.
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