The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity - The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God

The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity

The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity

The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God

Some doctrines perplex us more than others. Offhand, we could enumerate the following:

The Incarnation (the infinite God is born of a woman, the Virgin Mary, and takes upon Himself our finite humanity)
The Virginal Birth (Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Son, Jesus)
The Immaculate Conception (Mary's being conceived in her own mother's womb without the stain of Original Sin)
Creation ex nihilo (the creation by God of something out of nothing)

We assent to these dogmas (dogma, just by the way, is not a four letter word --- but rather, a formally revealed truth) although they remain mysteries, that is to say, they exceed the capacity of reason, while not conflicting with it. No logical contradiction can be adduced to discredit them; they simply lie beyond the province of our natural experience and the limitations inherent in reason (and reason has limitations: we need only ponder the concepts of infinity, infinite divisibility, and eternity to name a few).

Among these dogmas, or revealed truths, however, none quite so perplexes us as the notion of the Most Holy Trinity. That in and of itself it remains a profound mystery is profoundly true. However, because it pertains to the most central aspect of our faith as Catholics and Christians, inasmuch as it pertains to the Person and nature of God, we attempt to apprehend it in some measure, for only in knowing something, in knowing of its nature, can we begin to love it. We do not love what we do not know, and our knowing defectively or insufficiently results in our loving defectively or deficiently.

We wish to know God. We wish to know Him well. In fact, we are convinced --- and rightly so --- that the more we know about God, the more we will find to love in Him, and the more we love, the greater our own felicity ... especially when that love is requited.

Too often, in the minds of Christians, God is reduced to the Father: conceived as an elderly, avuncular figure with a great white beard Who is rather stern and quite distant; one Who is really very little involved in the trivial affairs of men, and so sent His Son instead, and the Son, of course, is less than the Father. What is more, the Son is more compassionate than this remote and rather irascible figure that more resembles Aristotle's Unmoved Mover, than a Father. We like Jesus --- although we fear His Father. In fact, for so many, Christian and pagan alike, Jesus was merely a man, perhaps a wise man, maybe even a prophet of sorts --- but not more. Well ... maybe ... but we are not quite sure how. The Holy Spirit? This faceless Spirit, whatever its nature, clearly cannot be that of a person, although He nevertheless figures largely in this mysterious narrative. Quite a conundrum.

Ask quite nearly every adult Catholic who has, over the past 40 years, suffered from the inexcusable negligence in Catechism, or CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine), as we call it here in America --- a negligence that lays at the feet of the Bishops who, opting for a more visible correctitude in matters social and political, have defaulted on their primary responsibility as Teachers of the Faith in their respective dioceses --- and the answer is the same, although the inflections vary: "I really don't know", or, "it is terribly unclear to me."

Many --- perhaps most --- will reply that there are three gods, or that one is superior to the other, or existed prior to the other, or in fact, that only one is God and the others are something of the nature of demiurges or lesser gods, possessed of remarkable abilities, to be sure, but rather like us in every other way.

Saint Augustine literally wrote volumes on the subject (De Trinitate), as did Saint Thomas Aquinas and many, many, other great and learned Saints. Even the the most modest compendium using the utmost concision will, very likely, avail you little in the way of understanding the most fundamental features of this doctrine, this profound mystery --- and in failing to yield understanding in whatever measure, consequently failing to motivate love for that which is not understood.

Perhaps, then, as it is said, "a picture (in this case a diagram) is worth a thousand words". So, for the sake of those who should be teaching and do not, or are teaching and know little of what they teach --- but most of all for the children, we present you a picture --- in the shameful absence of words.

Our motivation is simple: if you do not know God, how can you love Him?

Oh ... yes, ...God does not "look like" the conceptual drawing ... and we truly fear that we are compelled to say that ...

I Said: **As for your argument that coming in the name of someone means you are them, it’s really quite simple, have you ever represented someone (come in their name) without being the same person? (Working for a company, power of attorney, carried a message...)**

You Said: Yes, and I could easily have said, “I come to you with a quality product. The founder, CEO, and operations manager will guarantee satisfaction.” In my case, it is one person, my boss.

Yep, but it is still not you, however, I guess if you are the founder, CEO, and operations manager, you could say the same thing and still be telling the truth, although you would be misleading by not saying "I guarantee your satisfaction". God never misleads, he is a God of truth and cannot lie, for that is satan's job, If Jesus came to you in the Father's name it means that he is not the Father, anything else is twisting the scriptures to match what you have already decided is true, it's a perspective, it is not reality.

Reality is.

You Said: The Son testified that it was the Father in him doing the works, and telling him what to say.

Yes, much the way the Holy Ghost is in me and tells me what to say (when I listen to it).

You Said: When the Spirit of God left the man Jesus on the cross, he knew it, crying out. But God raised him from the dead.

Jesus was always God, at the last instant, if he had wanted to, he could have come down from the cross and refused to Give his life for man, you would have God the Father leaving Jesus to die all alone and without the choice to do otherwise. Of course, this is blasphemy, Jesus gave his life for us, no one had the power to take it from him, it was always a choice, Jesus also had the ability to raise himself from the dead:
John 10:17

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

You Said: The almighty Spirit of God is the Father; the Son testified of that (John 4:23,24).

Since you seem to be linkage challenged, let me help you out...
John 4:23,24

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is our father because he gave us life as a Spirit, which he has. God is also corporeal for he has a body, are you a spirit, or a Body? Can you be called both a spirit, and a Soul? How about this Scripture:
Luke 23:46

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So, Jesus had his own spirit that he was Commending unto the Father.

You Said: This is key: the Son was only divine while the Father was in him, but now is the dwelling place of ‘all the fulness of the Godhead bodily’ (Col. 2:9).

Again, linkage Challenged, Sigh...
Clo 2:9

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

You need to stop chopping up the scriptures, here try this:
Clo 2:8-10

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

To me reading this, the Nicene creed is the Philosophy and Vain Deceit, I wrote a section on that on my page, here on Free Republic. Yes, Jesus Personified the Godhead in all it's power and Majesty in him is manifest our Journey as children of God from Spirit to Mortal to Immortal. In him truly is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (see? you and I both interpret the scripture, but differently. You will now probably claim that you are not interpreting, LOL!

God Does not lie, God does not mislead, God does not decieve.

Why Pray to himself in the third person, why speak of the father in the third person?
why speak from the heavens when Jesus was baptized, was he practicing ventriloquism?
Why speak to Moses Face to Face, was it fakery?
Why Use the Father's testimony
Why appear to Stephen as his is being marytered and confuse people, is he playing with us? playing with Steven?
Why does he introduce himself as his Only Begotten son?B

This is but a small sampling, God gave us an analogy, Jesus himself explained the oneness he and the father share, in:
John 17:21-22

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jesus says the oneness of the disciples should be like his and the Father's oneness, This is not interpretation, it is exactly what the scripture says.

Does God try to confuse the heck out of people? No. Satan Confuses people, sometimes people confuse themselves, the scriptures are clear.

The Father is the Father, Jesus is his son, first born of the Spirit children, born before time, God before time, Chosen of the Father before the world was, by Jesus were all "things" created, and he is One with the Father in heart might mind and strength. His is the perfect example of what we could have been, for he is our brother, our Lord, our savior, our God.

You can and will believe whatever you want, what you cannot do is distort my religions beliefs, and the fact that they come from the Bible.

I do not answer out of a hope that you will repent of your blaspheming and Join God's church, but that those who lurk and read these threads might decide to pray about it.

My Father taught me long ago, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Good night and God bless you with the humility to ask his will.

The whole trinity idea is based on the thinking of the natural man: “Well, there is a father, that had a son, so that would make two, and a helper fellow, that makes three.”

And the Lord met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth.....say thus.......”God is not a man, that he should lie; or the son of man that he should repent..” Num. 23:16-19

The phrase “God the Father” IS scriptural.
The phrase “God the Son” is NOT scriptural; the phrase “Son of God” IS scriptural. IT IS THAT WAY FOR A REASON.
The Son(fleshly man with a soul) was BEGOTTEN. He was only from the beginning in plan.
test question: Who was the Father of the Son,; the Father or the Holy Ghost? Both? (That’s one of many snags of trinity teaching)

The Father was in Christ; so much so that John the baptist said: “For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth NOT the Spirit by measure unto him.” John 3:34.
Christ himself said: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath annointed me.....”. Luke 4:18

The Word does not tell you who is speaking, the man Christ Jesus or God the Father, when Christ speaks. You should (without the mindbending of man’s false doctrines) easily see that when Jesus Christ says “I thirst”, or “not my will, but thine, be done”; that’s NOT GOD talking, that’s the mind of a mortal man.

God spoke through Christ much of the time, for example, Luke 10:18: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”. Or John 2:19, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”.

**John 10:17
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.**

Don’t forget the next verse (18): “No MAN taketh it from me, but I lay it down OF myself. I have POWER to lay it down, and I have POWER to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” What is that power? the Spirit of God. Another good one: “Paul an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, WHO raised him from the dead;)” Gal. 1:1

**...God the Father leaving Jesus to die all alone and without the choice to do otherwise. Of course, this is blasphemy,....**
**Why Pray to himself in the third person, why speak of the father in the third person?**

That choice was made when the Son (flesh) said to the Father (Spirit) “not my will, but thine, be done”.

**God is our father because he gave us life as a Spirit, which he has.**

Big ‘S’ as in Holy Spirit (those who have received the Holy Ghost), or little ‘s’ as the spirit that God has given to every man? Rom. 8:16 “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (small ‘s’) that we are the children of God.”

**You need to stop chopping up the scriptures**

I won’t deny I have slow typing and deficient pc/internet skills.

**God Does not lie, God does not mislead, God does not decieve.**

True.

**why speak from the heavens when Jesus was baptized, was he practicing ventriloquism?**

That’s pretty lame, but your’re using the natural man to understand the things of the Spirit. One omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Spirit of God can dwell IN a man, give supernatural audio visual signs (for John’s benefit), and still manage the rest of mankind at the same time.

**Why speak to Moses Face to Face, was it fakery?**

Hebrew 1:1 (I’m sure you know it)

**Why Use the Father’s testimony**

BECAUSE: John 5:31 “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.” and another 14:10 “..the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”

**Why appear to Stephen as his is being marytered and confuse people, is he playing with us? playing with Steven?**

Again the natural man interpretation, thinking Stephen apparently saw two entire beings.
Take a look at the numerous ‘right hand’ references throughout the old testament, especially in Psalms. It’s the symbolic place of power and authority.

**Why does he introduce himself as his Only Begotten son?**

Because the Son was the only sinless flesh that was fathered by the Father.

**Jesus says the oneness of the disciples should be like his and the Father’s oneness, This is not interpretation, it is exactly what the scripture says.**

Yes, and that is man filled with the Spirit of God.
John 14:16-20 Jesus taught his disciples that they would receive another Comforter...”even the Spirit of truth....ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.....at that day” (When they receive the Holy Ghost) “ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” Jesus is telling them that he is coming back in another manifestation: AS the Holy Ghost! Paul called it “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Paul also said, “..Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his).

That brings us to the BIBLE experience of receiving the Holy Ghost:
Is being ‘pricked’ in one’s heart a sign of Holy Ghost baptism? No. Acts 2:37
Is hearing the gospel and believing a sign of Holy Ghost baptism? No. Acts 8:12 and 37

When souls are filled with the Holy Ghost (like they were in the Bible) they are yielded to God so completely that he controls their most unruly member, the tongue, and they speak praise unto God in a language they did not previously know. Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6

This dramatic, supernatural happening is incredible, letting that soul KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE (not warm fuzzies)that God has taken up residence in his body.

I will close with the inspired words of Paul: “but if the Spirit of him that RAISED Christ from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you”. Rom. 8:16

If you have not received the Holy Ghost the BIBLE way, then you don’t have it. Simple as that. (notice I was nice and didn’t make condecending comments and blasphemy accusations)

**His is the perfect example**

Amen, and may the Lord bless as you seek his perfect will.

You said: The phrase “God the Father” IS scriptural.
The phrase “God the Son” is NOT scriptural; the phrase “Son of God” IS scriptural. IT IS THAT WAY FOR A REASON.

Yes, because it is explaining the relationship of Jesus With God the Father, I.E. Jesus is God's only Begotten son in the flesh. (I keep adding in the flesh, wanna know why? keep reading

You said: The Son(fleshly man with a soul) was BEGOTTEN. He was only from the beginning in plan.
BZZT, Wrong! We were all planned for, God knows everything, remember, past, present and future. How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen? Besides, it's scriptural.

You said: test question: Who was the Father of the Son; the Father or the Holy Ghost? Both? (That’s one of many snags of trinity teaching)

Which is precisely why the trinity as a man made doctrine paints men into these "logical" corners that they just can't paint themselves out of.

God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ. He acted through the Holy Ghost's power in a way that we were not told how. Mary was still a virgin after she became pregnant with Jesus, for she had never known a man, or God the Father either after the manner of the flesh (so don't go there).

Now, lets look at a scripture where Jesus declares himself to be God, and when challenged by some of the Jews for "Making himself God", Jesus points out that all men have the potential to become Gods.
John 33:27-38

27 My asheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Again we can go to the Scripture also in John where Jesus himself gives a definition to his and the Father's oneness: John 17:21-22

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Knowing that the Apostles did indeed become one but not in some Pre-technology transformer fashion where they physically would join together to become a "Super Apostle^TM" but instead became one in heart, might, mind and strength. then that is how Jesus and God are one, it's in the scriptures, we have no need to be confused by a creed created in a council convened by a Pagan in 325 AD to use Christianity to unify his fractured Roman empire. Don't Believe me? I Document it all, including refrences to the Catholic enclyclopedia on line, Here on my page on FR

You said: The Father was in Christ; so much so that John the baptist said: “For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth NOT the Spirit by measure unto him.” John 3:34.
Christ himself said: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath annointed me.....”. Luke 4:18

I agree the Jesus was full of the spirit, but he was still acting of his own volition, God will force no man to heaven, or to hell.

You said: The Word does not tell you who is speaking, the man Christ Jesus or God the Father, when Christ speaks. You should (without the mindbending of man’s false doctrines) easily see that when Jesus Christ says “I thirst”, or “not my will, but thine, be done”; that’s NOT GOD talking, that’s the mind of a mortal man.

From My perspective, that's obvious because at that time Jesus was mortal and he was speaking, even while his spirit was immortal, as ours are, his body was mortal. Jesus being genetically part God, could choose to die, or choose not to die. He had the abilities of Both. God the father could not die, for his body is immortal and incorruptible, but Jesus, was part mortal and could die, so Jesus fulfilled the awful sacrifice that happened in the Garden, and continued through the crucification, knowing that at any time, as a member of the Godhead, he could command the legions of angels to smite his enemies, he could command the earth to swallow up his torturers, he could step down from the cross unharmed, he CHOSE to die for us having the power and the authority of God, he died for us and that is terrible, and wonderful at the same time.

I truly tell you that your interpretation that Jesus was a man when he died on the cross offends me for it cheapens Jesus' sacrifice, by having him tied to the stake like the goat baiting a trap, an unknowing, unwilling sacrifice with God leaving at the last minute to allow him to die alone. This is not the Atonement, this is not majestic and great sacrifice of a perfect soul who loved his brothers enough to die for them, this is not what is written in the bible, and it pains me that you actually believe such a base and low interpretation.

You said: God spoke through Christ much of the time, for example, Luke 10:18: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”. Or John 2:19, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”.

I said: <Scripture snip> Jesus had the power from God the Father because he inherited it.

...God the Father leaving Jesus to die all alone and without the choice to do otherwise. Of course, this is blasphemy,....
Why Pray to himself in the third person, why speak of the father in the third person?

You never answer, but answer the question above this one, that's OK, they were rhetorical questions.

You said: That choice was made when the Son (flesh) said to the Father (Spirit) “not my will, but thine, be done”.

So, Jesus the Man agreed to the Incomprehensible suffering (incomprehensible to man) and then had no choice?

Dress it up however you want, but it cheapens the act of deciding all the way up unto death to die for us to say it was a choice he did not have at the end when the spirit was withdrawn, and it des not follow that he continued calm until death with your theory of a departing controlling spirit, panic would have set in for a mortal suddenly on his own and about to die.

I said: God is our father because he gave us life as a Spirit, which he has.

You said: Big ‘S’ as in Holy Spirit (those who have received the Holy Ghost), or little ‘s’ as the spirit that God has given to every man? Rom. 8:16 “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit (small ‘s’) that we are the children of God.” Now you are resorting to Words of Art? LOL!

God the Father knew us before we were born, many of us were ordained to a purpose in life before we were born.
Jer 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
I said: You need to stop chopping up the scriptures

You said: I won’t deny I have slow typing and deficient pc/internet skills.

That is not what I was talking about, but, I cut and paste the actual scriptures from http://scriptures.lds.org you can limit searches tot he Bible, and editing links is pretty obvious once you look at a few. It's still the KJV Bible, even if we have more, grin.

I said: God Does not lie, God does not mislead, God does not deceive.

You said: True.

Glad we can agree on something, grin.

I said: why speak from the heavens when Jesus was baptized, was he practicing ventriloquism?

You said: That’s pretty lame, but your’re using the natural man to understand the things of the Spirit. One omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Spirit of God can dwell IN a man, give super natural audio visual signs (for John’s benefit), and still manage the rest of mankind at the same time.

But why do it, We have already agreed that God does not deceive.

I said: Why speak to Moses Face to Face, was it fakery?

You said: Hebrew 1:1 (I’m sure you know it)

Yes, I know it, but again, you stop to soon, here, let me help you with the Quote: Heb 1:1-14

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This is indeed a beautiful chapter in the Bible:
God speaks through prophets (1).
Jesus was "Appointed heir of all things" this happened before Time started. (2)
Jesus Create all the worlds after being appointed the Father's heir. (2)
Jesus is in the Express (exact) image of God the Father (How can you be created in the Express image of some thing that has no image?) (3)
Jesus By himself purged us of Sin (3)
Jesus sat down on the Right hand of the Majesty on high (God the Father) who has a right hand side to sit on. (3)
Jesus was Made (4)
Jesus is better than an Angel (4)
Jesus inherited his name(s) (4)
The Father did not declare the Angels to be his inheritors. (5)
The Father commanded all the Angels to worship Jesus (6)
The Father made the Spirits, Jesus's Angels (7)
The Father says Jesus' Ministers are as a flame of Fire (7)
The Father gave Jesus his Throne for ever and ever and Calls Jesus God. (8)
The Father says Jesus' septre is righteousness. (8)
The Father says Jesus Loved Righteousness. (9)
The Father says Jesus Hated Iniquity. (9)
The Father says He anointed Jesus above his Fellows (9) (What fellows? Us.)
The Father calls Jesus Lord, and declares that Jesus Made the earth and the works of the heavens. (10)
The Father says creations will end with time. (11)
The Father says that Jesus will continue to be God after time has ended. (11)
The Father says Jesus will destroy, or "Fold up" all creation. (12)
The Father says Jesus will not change, and time does not apply to him. (12)
The Father says he never asked the angels to sit on his right hand. (13)
The Father says the angels are to minister to those who will inherit salvation.(14)

Truly this is a beautiful chapter, and thanks for bringing it up.

I said: Why Use the Father’s testimony

You said: BECAUSE: John 5:31 “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.” and another 14:10 “..the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”

Precisely, if he is God, or God is speaking though him, he and God are one being and thus there is only one testator and that is a problem scripturally. Jesus knew the Law of Moses, and the Law of Moses said that the testimony of one is not valid, as reflected in:
Deut. 17: 6

6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

And later in:
2 Cor. 13: 1

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

If Jesus is the same substance of God and testifies of him self and when Questioned, says the Father testifies of him, he is lying for he is saying there are two witnesses, and in truth, there is only one. We agreed that God id a God of truth, and cannot lie., remember?

I said: Why appear to Stephen as he is being marytered and confuse people, is he playing with us? playing with Steven?

You said: Again the natural man interpretation, thinking Stephen apparently saw two entire beings.
Take a look at the numerous ‘right hand’ references throughout the old testament, especially in Psalms. It’s the symbolic place of power and authority.

Lets take a look at the scriptures: Acts 7:55-56

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus estanding on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

It seems pretty claear to me exactly what Stephen saw, I guess you have to interpet the scriptures in some non-literal way not to be being "fooled".

The Symbol came from God. The correct interpretation, is the literal one. As soon as you start saying, well, he didn't actually mean what he said... you are in danger of following the "Natural Man" that you bring up here, again, there are numerous references, because it is a construct used by God because he has a right hand.

I said: Why does he introduce himself as his Only Begotten son?

You said: Because the Son was the only sinless flesh that was fathered by the Father.

That is right, Jesus is the only sinless being and the only being Fathered in the flesh by the Father of Spirits.

I said: Jesus says the oneness of the disciples should be like his and the Father’s oneness, This is not interpretation, it is exactly what the scripture says.

You said: Yes, and that is man filled with the Spirit of God.

Yes, and I have been filled with the spirit of God, havent you?

<Snip> (I remove a bunch of scriptures arranged very artfully, but taken out of context. Next you will I suppose start arranging words and if that is not enough letters from the bible?)

You said: That brings us to the BIBLE experience of receiving the Holy Ghost:
Is being ‘pricked’ in one’s heart a sign of Holy Ghost baptism? No. Acts 2:37
Is hearing the gospel and believing a sign of Holy Ghost baptism? No. Acts 8:12 and 37

When souls are filled with the Holy Ghost (like they were in the Bible) they are yielded to God so completely that he controls their most unruly member, the tongue, and they speak praise unto God in a language they did not previously know. Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6

Are you saying that anyone who has not spoken in lounges has not received the holy Ghost?

Surely you know that that particular manifestation did not always happen, correct?

You said: This dramatic, super natural happening is incredible, letting that soul KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE (not warm fuzzies)that God has taken up residence in his body.

I must ask, have you ever spoken in tongues, what did you say?

I served my mission in Taiwan, as anyone who has studied it can tell you Chinese is a "10" on a "1" to "10" scale of language difficulty for Americans. I must admit that I flunked German, French and yes Spanish in high school, but I was quickly fluent in Chinese to the point that over the phone people often thought I was native. I sometimes did not know how to explain a principle, so I would just start the sentence anyway, and listen as i gave a beautiful answer to the question I had been asked. Once when we finished a discussion, my companion asked me what I had said, I told him, I don't know, but I took notes so I can look it up when we get home.

Those who think the Gift of tongues is babbling with no one who can understand them are greatly mistaken. 1 Cor. 14:27

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

You said: I will close with the inspired words of Paul: “but if the Spirit of him that RAISED Christ from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you”. Rom. 8:16

Well said, but alas, again you end too soon:

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

So, The Spirit of God (the Holy Ghost) Jesus Christ as a member of the Godhead, is God and raised himself from the dead, so this is accurate. This Spirit (the Holy Ghost) will quicken our mortal bodies. That makes sense too.

You see from my perspective, what you just said is in no way an indictment of what I believe (Even though I know you thought it would), only an affirmation of my beliefs, but, if you read on in the scriptures, you will see that not only are we the children of God, but we will be adopted children of God (and be brothers of Christ in inheritance as well as in spirit) and thus be Joint inheritors with Christ, inheriting the fathers kingdom, and thus become Deified, in short, this chapter is talking about the Gift that Jesus offers us all, to share in his kingdom, and become Gods and Goddesses with him. That's something you believe, right?

I mean you brought up this Chapter, you knew all that was there, right?

Mormons have no problem with this, for our doctrine reflects EXACTLY what is REALLY in the bible, not your interpretation, not mine, what's really there.

You said: If you have not received the Holy Ghost the BIBLE way, then you don’t have it. Simple as that. (notice I was nice and didn’t make condescending comments and blasphemy accusations)

Actually, I have met all of your criteria, and then some. I have received the Holy Ghost. I pray that I may continue to be worthy of his companionship, for it is very precious to me. I made the comment about Blasphemy earlier, because, I have been called it so many times, I have learned to preemptively use the term so both sides will realize we can both throw it around, so often, I am told what I believe, Often I am judged by people claiming to be "Christian" Even though they have been commanded to Judge Not.

I said: His is the perfect example

You said: Amen, and may the Lord bless as you seek his perfect will.

I have hope only in Jesus, may you also have that hope.

I said: The Son(fleshly man with a soul) was BEGOTTEN. He was only from the beginning in plan.

You said: BZZT, Wrong! We were all planned for, God knows everything, remember, past, present and future. How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen? Besides, it’s scriptural.

I say: You’re agreeing with me and you don’t even realize it, for you said, “How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen”.
Yep, God had a plan in the beginning.

You said: God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ. He acted through the Holy Ghost’s power in a way that we were not told how.

I say: So, it took two separate and distinct Gods to father the Christ. The Father needed the Holy Ghost’s help to accomplish the task. The Father couldn’t do it by himself?You admit the trinity doctrine is manmade, yet you seem to be saying that there are two fathers of Jesus Christ.

‘Father’ is a title. How does the Father do anything? He is a Spirit. That’s how he works in mankind..by..his..Spirit.

You said: Now, lets look at a scripture where Jesus declares himself to be God, and when challenged by some of the Jews for “Making himself God”, Jesus points out that all men have the potential to become Gods.

I say: You pride yourself in laying out long passages, yet you interpret them to suit your doctrine (or maybe are simply presenting what you are taught by your teachers).

Why no emphasis on verse 30 “I and my Father are one.” One, not two. Jesus Christ was (and is God) because of the Father IN him doing the works.

verse 34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Of course the Lord was quoting from Psalms 82. How about the part where God says:” but ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes”.

I know you will say that I’m interpreting, but I believe that God is referring to men sent to speak the word of God.

You said: Again we can go to the Scripture also in John where Jesus himself gives a definition to his and the Father’s oneness: John 17:21-22

I say: I gave you John 14:16-20 to explain that. (I know, didn’t lay it out for ya, but the meaning is there.)

You said: I truly tell you that your interpretation that Jesus was a man when he died on the cross offends me for it cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice, by having him tied to the stake like the goat baiting a trap, an unknowing, unwilling sacrifice with God leaving at the last minute to allow him to die alone. This is not the Atonement, this is not majestic and great sacrifice of a perfect soul who loved his brothers enough to die for them, this is not what is written in the bible, and it pains me that you actually believe such a base and low interpretation.

I say: My dealing with your trained concept of the Godhead is really what offends you. After all, your concept is two images. You thank me for bringing up Heb. 1:1, then display the whole chapter, then interpret it, as if that means you understand it all.

You say: Jesus is in the Express (exact) image of God the Father (How can you be created in the Express image of some thing that has no image?) (3)

I say: Scriptures must harmonize. You said something about two witnesses. How about Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the firstborn of every creature.” Talk about ‘no interpretation needed’

And we continue, verses 16 & 17: “For by him were all things created, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in EARTH, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS, ALL THINGS were created by him and for him. And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.” If you believe in two Godhead images in heaven, your logic has the Father created by the Son.

Also, by your logic, if the Father has his own separate and distinct heavenly knees, he too, will bow to the name of Jesus. Phil. 2:10

But how is this explained: As I have said several times, The Father (Spirit) is IN the Son (sinless flesh).

And how did Jesus Christ stay sinless; by the Father dwelling in him. It’s how he was able to tell his disciples, “..be of good cheer; I have overcome the world”. John 16:33

In the garden, the man Christ Jesus was strengthened by an angel. By your logic, that would be totally unnecessary, since the man Christ Jesus is a separate power of God (just one with the Father, in agreement).

By your logic, in heaven, the image of the Father says to the image of the Son: “You’re going to have to dwell in a fleshly body and die, but I’ll raise you up.” The Father would appear to be a coward by that reasoning. The Father is a Spirit, which “hath not flesh and bone, as ye see me have.” Luke 24:39.

God made himself a body to redeem fallen man. This man was born sinless, yet was tempted in all points. You say I’m not giving him a choice. His choice was this: “I come to thy will, O God”. (Heb. 10:7-10) He had to be made perfect through sufferings. The man Christ Jesus went to the cross willingly; the power of the Father kept him sinless all the way to the cross, and then left him (because you cannot kill deity). The Father raised him up (you kinda let my Gal. 1:1 reference just slide on by).

Your logic has one portion of the power of God crying out to another portion of God. Talk about low and base interpretations.

You said: Jesus sat down on the Right hand of the Majesty on high (God the Father) who has a right hand side to sit on. (3)

I say: You believe the ‘right hand’ is literal (go back and read those verses in Ephesians again, please). Do you also believe that Rev. 5:6,7 are literal as well? You really need to do a study on the ‘hand’ or ‘right hand’. Did Moses use sign language to instruct Aaron and his sons? (Lev. 8:36)
The Israelites were brought out of Egypt ‘with a mighty hand’.
Or how about an ‘arm’? “And he saw that there was no intercessor:”.. (why? because he was yet to be made.)”therefore his arm brought salavation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.” Isaiah 59:16

Would a vision of seeing two images in heaven set the scribes and pharisees into a rage? Not like someone claiming that he sees Jesus Christ in the place of power and authority. They went beserk when that was the apparent claim.

Jesus Christ said, “All power is given me..”. That is harmonious to the claim that the fullness of the Godhead is found bodily in Jesus Christ.

You said: Jesus inherited his name(s) (4)

I say: absolutely, He said, “I am come in my Father’s name..” John 5:43. The Christ also said, “..the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in MY name..” John 14:26.

That is why the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. They had the revelation of Jesus Christ, and therefore knew the saving name of God.

And the Lord’s water baptism:
You said: But why do it, We have already agreed that God does not deceive.

No deception at all, just additional confirmation to John that Jesus was the annointed one. (Also, since you’re quick with the links, read Acts 10:36-43 real slow a couple of times)

And of my mention of Rom. 8:16:
You said: Well said, but alas, again you end too soon:

I say: that’s fine put entire passages up.

You said: Jesus Christ as a member of the Godhead, is God and raised himself from the dead, so this is accurate.

I say: Inaccurate, read Gal 1:1 again.

You said: Actually, I have met all of your criteria, and then some. I have received the Holy Ghost....

You also said: Are you saying that anyone who has not spoken in lounges has not received the holy Ghost?
Surely you know that that particular manifestation did not always happen, correct?

I say: How can you be sure? In Acts, the born again instances that don’t go into detail don’t say they did not speak in tongues. One instance in Acts 8:5-24, that does not go into that detail does mention a sorcerer. This man had done some startling things, to the point where the Samaritans said, “..this man is the great power of God....”. But after seeing souls filled with the Holy Ghost, offered the apostles money for the power to lay hands on people so that they receive the Holy Ghost. IMO, I don’t think he was moved to that extreme by seeing someone say’ “I accept the Lord as my savior”.

I’m sure you know that Romans through Revelation are letters to the church, to the saints. Those people had already been born again, they had no need of the rebirth being explained all over again (although it is alluded to in some places). People that have not been born again can read the epistles, but they need to read them in that context.

You also said: Those who think the Gift of tongues is babbling with no one who can understand them are greatly mistaken.

I say: I’ve seen babblers that are suspect (that’s another subject), but there are unknown tongues: Paul said: “Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels,..” 1 Cor. 13:1
Also: “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but UNTO God: for NO man understandeth him: howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”. 1 Cor. 14:2

I say: I believe you repent and practice it. Were you baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins? (he and the apostles demand it)
Have you received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues? If not, how can you be sure you have, for Jesus, teaching on being born again, said there is a sound heard when everyone receives it: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN of the Spirit.” John 3:8

My experience was likewise. At church one night, over 25 yrs ago, while I was praising and worshipping God, I began to say unknown words I had not previously spoken. I stopped immediately. A brother praying with me said, “why did you stop?”
I said, “well, I was startled by it, because that wasn’t me doing it.”
He said, “Correct, it wasn’t you. That’s the Spirit of God speaking through you, making his presence heard.”

That is how a soul becomes one with God, the Father in you, just like he is in Jesus Christ. That’s how to become a joint heir.

You said: ..editing links is pretty obvious once you look at a few. It’s still the KJV Bible, even if we have more, grin.

I say: The extras, and the way parts of the rest of the Bible is taught by your organization, is highly suspect to error.

You said: I have hope only in Jesus, may you also have that hope.

Thank you, ‘an right back at cha’ (lingo of my occupation; a humble truck driver)(and if another reply is needed, it might be awhile, that’s that lifestyle I live).

Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity

157. The solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity is celebrated on the Sunday after Pentecost. With the growth of devotion to the mystery of God in His Unity and Trinity, John XXII extended the feast of the Holy Trinity to the entire Latin Church in 1334. During the middle ages, especially during the carolingian period, devotion to the Blessed Trinity was a highly important feature of private devotion and inspired several liturgical expressions. These events were influential in the development of certain pious exercises.

In the present context, it would not appear appropriate to mention specific pious exercises connected with popular devotion to the Blessed Trinity, "the central mystery of the faith and of the Christian life"¹⁶⁵. It sufficies to recall that every genuine form of popular piety must necessarily refer to God, "the all-powerful Father, His only begotten Son and the Holy Spirit"¹⁶⁶. Such is the mystery of God, as revealed in Christ and through him. Such have been his manifestations in salvation history. The history of salvation "is the history of the revelation of the one true God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who reconciles and unites to Himself those who have been freed from sin" ¹⁶⁷.

Numerous pious exercises have a Trinitarian character or dimension. Most of them begin with the sign of the cross "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", the same formula with which the disciples of Jesus are baptized (cf. Mt 28, 19), thereby beginning a life of intimacy with the God, as sons of the Father, brothers of Jesus, and temples of the Holy Spirit. Other pious exercises use formulas similar to those found in the Liturgy of the Hours and begin by giving "Glory to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". Some pious exercises end with a blessing given in the name of the three divine Persons. Many of the prayers used in these pious exercises follow the typical liturgical form and are addressed to the "Father, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit", and conserve doxological formulas taken from the Liturgy.

158. Worship, as has been said in the first part of this Directory, is the dialogue of God with man through Christ in the Holy Spirit¹⁶⁸. A Trinitarian orientation is therefore an essential element in popular piety. It should be clear to the faithful that all pious exercises in honour of the Blessed Virgin May, and of the Angels and Saints have the Father as their final end, from Whom all thing come and to Whom all things return; the incarnate, dead and resurrected Son is the only mediator (1Tim 2,5) apart from whom access to the Father is impossible (cf. John 14,6); the Holy Spirit is the only source of grace and sanctification. It is important to avoid any concept of "divinity" which is abstract from the three Divine Persons.

159. Together with the little doxology (Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit....) and the great doxology (Glory be to God in the highest), pious exercises addressed directly to the Most Blessed Trinity often include formulas such as the biblical Trisagion (Holy, Holy, Holy) and also its liturgical form (Holy God, Holy Strong One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us), especially in the Eastern Churches, in some Western countries as well as among numerous religious orders and congregations.

The liturgical Trisagion is inspired by liturgical hymns and its biblical counterpart. Here mention could be made of the Sanctus used in the celebration of the Mass, the Te Deum, the improperia of Good Friday's veneration of the Cross, all of which are derived from Isaiah 6, 3 and Apocalypses 4, 8. The Trisagion is a pious exercise in which the faithful, united with the Angels, continually glorify God, the Holy, Powerful and Immortal One, while using expressions of praise drawn from Scripture and the Liturgy.

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