27 My asheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:Again we can go to the Scripture also in John where Jesus himself gives a definition to his and the Father's oneness: John 17:21-22
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:Knowing that the Apostles did indeed become one but not in some Pre-technology transformer fashion where they physically would join together to become a "Super ApostleTM" but instead became one in heart, might, mind and strength. then that is how Jesus and God are one, it's in the scriptures, we have no need to be confused by a creed created in a council convened by a Pagan in 325 AD to use Christianity to unify his fractured Roman empire. Don't Believe me? I Document it all, including refrences to the Catholic enclyclopedia on line, Here on my page on FR
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.I said: You need to stop chopping up the scriptures
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,This is indeed a beautiful chapter in the Bible:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.And later in:
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.If Jesus is the same substance of God and testifies of him self and when Questioned, says the Father testifies of him, he is lying for he is saying there are two witnesses, and in truth, there is only one. We agreed that God id a God of truth, and cannot lie., remember?
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus estanding on the right hand of God,It seems pretty claear to me exactly what Stephen saw, I guess you have to interpet the scriptures in some non-literal way not to be being "fooled".
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.You said: I will close with the inspired words of Paul: but if the Spirit of him that RAISED Christ from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom. 8:16
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.So, The Spirit of God (the Holy Ghost) Jesus Christ as a member of the Godhead, is God and raised himself from the dead, so this is accurate. This Spirit (the Holy Ghost) will quicken our mortal bodies. That makes sense too.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I said: The Son(fleshly man with a soul) was BEGOTTEN. He was only from the beginning in plan.
You said: BZZT, Wrong! We were all planned for, God knows everything, remember, past, present and future. How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen? Besides, it’s scriptural.
I say: You’re agreeing with me and you don’t even realize it, for you said, “How could he not plan for what was most surely to come since he knew it was going to happen”.
Yep, God had a plan in the beginning.
You said: God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ. He acted through the Holy Ghost’s power in a way that we were not told how.
I say: So, it took two separate and distinct Gods to father the Christ. The Father needed the Holy Ghost’s help to accomplish the task. The Father couldn’t do it by himself?You admit the trinity doctrine is manmade, yet you seem to be saying that there are two fathers of Jesus Christ.
‘Father’ is a title. How does the Father do anything? He is a Spirit. That’s how he works in mankind..by..his..Spirit.
You said: Now, lets look at a scripture where Jesus declares himself to be God, and when challenged by some of the Jews for “Making himself God”, Jesus points out that all men have the potential to become Gods.
I say: You pride yourself in laying out long passages, yet you interpret them to suit your doctrine (or maybe are simply presenting what you are taught by your teachers).
Why no emphasis on verse 30 “I and my Father are one.” One, not two. Jesus Christ was (and is God) because of the Father IN him doing the works.
verse 34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Of course the Lord was quoting from Psalms 82. How about the part where God says:” but ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes”.
I know you will say that I’m interpreting, but I believe that God is referring to men sent to speak the word of God.
You said: Again we can go to the Scripture also in John where Jesus himself gives a definition to his and the Father’s oneness: John 17:21-22
I say: I gave you John 14:16-20 to explain that. (I know, didn’t lay it out for ya, but the meaning is there.)
You said: I truly tell you that your interpretation that Jesus was a man when he died on the cross offends me for it cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice, by having him tied to the stake like the goat baiting a trap, an unknowing, unwilling sacrifice with God leaving at the last minute to allow him to die alone. This is not the Atonement, this is not majestic and great sacrifice of a perfect soul who loved his brothers enough to die for them, this is not what is written in the bible, and it pains me that you actually believe such a base and low interpretation.
I say: My dealing with your trained concept of the Godhead is really what offends you. After all, your concept is two images. You thank me for bringing up Heb. 1:1, then display the whole chapter, then interpret it, as if that means you understand it all.
You say: Jesus is in the Express (exact) image of God the Father (How can you be created in the Express image of some thing that has no image?) (3)
I say: Scriptures must harmonize. You said something about two witnesses. How about Col. 1:15 “Who is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the firstborn of every creature.” Talk about ‘no interpretation needed’
And we continue, verses 16 & 17: “For by him were all things created, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in EARTH, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS, ALL THINGS were created by him and for him. And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist.” If you believe in two Godhead images in heaven, your logic has the Father created by the Son.
Also, by your logic, if the Father has his own separate and distinct heavenly knees, he too, will bow to the name of Jesus. Phil. 2:10
But how is this explained: As I have said several times, The Father (Spirit) is IN the Son (sinless flesh).
And how did Jesus Christ stay sinless; by the Father dwelling in him. It’s how he was able to tell his disciples, “..be of good cheer; I have overcome the world”. John 16:33
In the garden, the man Christ Jesus was strengthened by an angel. By your logic, that would be totally unnecessary, since the man Christ Jesus is a separate power of God (just one with the Father, in agreement).
By your logic, in heaven, the image of the Father says to the image of the Son: “You’re going to have to dwell in a fleshly body and die, but I’ll raise you up.” The Father would appear to be a coward by that reasoning. The Father is a Spirit, which “hath not flesh and bone, as ye see me have.” Luke 24:39.
God made himself a body to redeem fallen man. This man was born sinless, yet was tempted in all points. You say I’m not giving him a choice. His choice was this: “I come to thy will, O God”. (Heb. 10:7-10) He had to be made perfect through sufferings. The man Christ Jesus went to the cross willingly; the power of the Father kept him sinless all the way to the cross, and then left him (because you cannot kill deity). The Father raised him up (you kinda let my Gal. 1:1 reference just slide on by).
Your logic has one portion of the power of God crying out to another portion of God. Talk about low and base interpretations.
You said: Jesus sat down on the Right hand of the Majesty on high (God the Father) who has a right hand side to sit on. (3)
I say: You believe the ‘right hand’ is literal (go back and read those verses in Ephesians again, please). Do you also believe that Rev. 5:6,7 are literal as well? You really need to do a study on the ‘hand’ or ‘right hand’. Did Moses use sign language to instruct Aaron and his sons? (Lev. 8:36)
The Israelites were brought out of Egypt ‘with a mighty hand’.
Or how about an ‘arm’? “And he saw that there was no intercessor:”.. (why? because he was yet to be made.)”therefore his arm brought salavation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.” Isaiah 59:16
Would a vision of seeing two images in heaven set the scribes and pharisees into a rage? Not like someone claiming that he sees Jesus Christ in the place of power and authority. They went beserk when that was the apparent claim.
Jesus Christ said, “All power is given me..”. That is harmonious to the claim that the fullness of the Godhead is found bodily in Jesus Christ.
You said: Jesus inherited his name(s) (4)
I say: absolutely, He said, “I am come in my Father’s name..” John 5:43. The Christ also said, “..the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in MY name..” John 14:26.
That is why the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. They had the revelation of Jesus Christ, and therefore knew the saving name of God.
And the Lord’s water baptism:
You said: But why do it, We have already agreed that God does not deceive.
No deception at all, just additional confirmation to John that Jesus was the annointed one. (Also, since you’re quick with the links, read Acts 10:36-43 real slow a couple of times)
And of my mention of Rom. 8:16:
You said: Well said, but alas, again you end too soon:
I say: that’s fine put entire passages up.
You said: Jesus Christ as a member of the Godhead, is God and raised himself from the dead, so this is accurate.
I say: Inaccurate, read Gal 1:1 again.
You said: Actually, I have met all of your criteria, and then some. I have received the Holy Ghost....
You also said: Are you saying that anyone who has not spoken in lounges has not received the holy Ghost?
Surely you know that that particular manifestation did not always happen, correct?
I say: How can you be sure? In Acts, the born again instances that don’t go into detail don’t say they did not speak in tongues. One instance in Acts 8:5-24, that does not go into that detail does mention a sorcerer. This man had done some startling things, to the point where the Samaritans said, “..this man is the great power of God....”. But after seeing souls filled with the Holy Ghost, offered the apostles money for the power to lay hands on people so that they receive the Holy Ghost. IMO, I don’t think he was moved to that extreme by seeing someone say’ “I accept the Lord as my savior”.
I’m sure you know that Romans through Revelation are letters to the church, to the saints. Those people had already been born again, they had no need of the rebirth being explained all over again (although it is alluded to in some places). People that have not been born again can read the epistles, but they need to read them in that context.
You also said: Those who think the Gift of tongues is babbling with no one who can understand them are greatly mistaken.
I say: I’ve seen babblers that are suspect (that’s another subject), but there are unknown tongues: Paul said: “Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels,..” 1 Cor. 13:1
Also: “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but UNTO God: for NO man understandeth him: howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”. 1 Cor. 14:2
I say: I believe you repent and practice it. Were you baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins? (he and the apostles demand it)
Have you received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues? If not, how can you be sure you have, for Jesus, teaching on being born again, said there is a sound heard when everyone receives it: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN of the Spirit.” John 3:8
My experience was likewise. At church one night, over 25 yrs ago, while I was praising and worshipping God, I began to say unknown words I had not previously spoken. I stopped immediately. A brother praying with me said, “why did you stop?”
I said, “well, I was startled by it, because that wasn’t me doing it.”
He said, “Correct, it wasn’t you. That’s the Spirit of God speaking through you, making his presence heard.”
That is how a soul becomes one with God, the Father in you, just like he is in Jesus Christ. That’s how to become a joint heir.
You said: ..editing links is pretty obvious once you look at a few. It’s still the KJV Bible, even if we have more, grin.
I say: The extras, and the way parts of the rest of the Bible is taught by your organization, is highly suspect to error.
You said: I have hope only in Jesus, may you also have that hope.
Thank you, ‘an right back at cha’ (lingo of my occupation; a humble truck driver)(and if another reply is needed, it might be awhile, that’s that lifestyle I live).