Posted on 10/19/2007 9:51:40 AM PDT by NYer
Ping
Useful diagram thanks for posting.
If God is the Father and also the Son and Holy Ghost, why isn’t the Son also the Father or the Holy Ghost?
...Perhaps, then, as it is said, "a picture (in this case a diagram) is worth a thousand words". So, for the sake of those who should be teaching and do not, or are teaching and know little of what they teach --- but most of all for the children, we present you a picture --- in the shameful absence of words.
And the author of this piece resorts to the same; unable to explain it, he resorts to pictures. Catholic apologetics have left the laity without hope. All they know is how to appeal to the authority of the Magistrate; none seem to make an appeal to Scripture.
Apparently you did not read the entire article. How about you, Professor Alex, explain the Trinity to the ignorant.
“Catholic apologetics” would be 2000 years’ worth of endeavor. Do you really feel qualified to assert a universal negative regarding every Catholic apologist from Clement, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr to Scott Hahn? You’ve read them all?
THIS is a magistrate.
THIS is the Magisterium.
read later
It's hardly persuasive. Ask a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness just how convincing they find it. Why should anyone believe it?
I don't see the "steering wheel" as a tool of persuasion, but as a tool of explanation.
So a better question might be "Does it help to explain what we mean by 'Trinity'"?
The article is catechetical in scope, not apologetic. You need to teach your own first, before they evangelize others. As a means to that end, in conjunction with Scripture and the ecumenical councils (which treat to the subject in far greater detail, frankly, than Scripture does), the steering wheel is a very good tool. That’s all it is, a tool. Given the catechetical vacuum in the Western Catholic Church for 40+ years - a vacuum no serious Catholic will deny exists - it is a very good tool indeed.
Somewhat more satisfying and theologically rich than a steering wheel too!
This pretty much explains it:
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved
Thanks, but all I could get was that certain things ‘are’, it didn’t really explain why or how.
I understand what you mean, but I like it because it’s a very clear and powerful statement of what we believe and what we don’t believe. It’s called the Athanasian Creed, by the way.
I do not claim this is THE most accurate way to explain this mystery/seeming paradox, but it has been helpful to others. The means to understand is based in the capabilities expressed in dimensional limits: Jesus told Philip that if he/Philip saw Jesus he saw the Father because Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Jesus. In a sense what Jesus was using was a dimensional explanation.
In a length/width/height (volume) room, there is a length which is not height but it is part of the room; there is a width that is part of the room but it is not the whole room; in a volume there are points that are within the volume, located along a length, a width, and a height, but these points are not the whole room.
If we use only one direction, we may define where along a line a point may be found. If we use two directions (length and width) we may find on a plane where a point may be found. If we have three axi of direction (length, width, height) we can locate a point first with length, then length and width, but that would place the point on a plane. To place the point in the volume we need a third number, the height, then we have the particular plane in which the point is found placed at the particular height for the location. God is the volume of the room, in a sense, but in the Holy Spirit (we could analogize as the plane in the room) there are limits to the dimensional qualities in use. Jesus is God, but while in human flesh there are limits to dimensional quality in use. But he came from Mary's womb into the air world in the same fashion He came out of the sealed tomb to some location outside without unsealing the tomb.
Never seen the ‘steering wheel’ diagram before. I like it!
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