The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity - The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God

Boston Catholic Journal ^

[NYer]

The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity

The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God

 

Some doctrines perplex us more than others. Offhand, we could enumerate the following:

• The Incarnation (the infinite God is born of a woman, the Virgin Mary, and takes upon Himself our finite humanity)

• The Virginal Birth (Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Son, Jesus)

• The Immaculate Conception (Mary's being conceived in her own mother's womb without the stain of Original Sin)

• Creation ex nihilo (the creation by God of something out of nothing)

We assent to these dogmas (dogma, just by the way, is not a four letter word --- but rather, a formally revealed truth) although they remain mysteries, that is to say, they exceed the capacity of reason, while not conflicting with it. No logical contradiction can be adduced to discredit them; they simply lie beyond the province of our natural experience and the limitations inherent in reason (and reason has limitations: we need only ponder the concepts of infinity, infinite divisibility, and eternity to name a few).

Among these dogmas, or revealed truths, however, none quite so perplexes us as the notion of the Most Holy Trinity. That in and of itself it remains a profound mystery is profoundly true. However, because it pertains to the most central aspect of our faith as Catholics and Christians, inasmuch as it pertains to the Person and nature of God, we attempt to apprehend it in some measure, for only in knowing something, in knowing of its nature, can we begin to love it. We do not love what we do not know, and our knowing defectively or insufficiently results in our loving defectively or deficiently.

We wish to know God. We wish to know Him well. In fact, we are convinced --- and rightly so --- that the more we know about God, the more we will find to love in Him, and the more we love, the greater our own felicity ... especially when that love is requited.

Too often, in the minds of Christians, God is reduced to the Father: conceived as an elderly, avuncular figure with a great white beard Who is rather stern and quite distant; one Who is really very little involved in the trivial affairs of men, and so sent His Son instead, and the Son, of course, is less than the Father. What is more, the Son is more compassionate than this remote and rather irascible figure that more resembles Aristotle's Unmoved Mover, than a Father. We like Jesus --- although we fear His Father. In fact, for so many, Christian and pagan alike, Jesus was merely a man, perhaps a wise man, maybe even a prophet of sorts --- but not more. Well ... maybe ... but we are not quite sure how. The Holy Spirit? This faceless Spirit, whatever its nature, clearly cannot be that of a person, although He nevertheless figures largely in this mysterious narrative. Quite a conundrum.

Ask quite nearly every adult Catholic who has, over the past 40 years, suffered from the inexcusable negligence in Catechism, or CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine), as we call it here in America --- a negligence that lays at the feet of the Bishops who, opting for a more visible correctitude in matters social and political, have defaulted on their primary responsibility as Teachers of the Faith in their respective dioceses --- and the answer is the same, although the inflections vary: "I really don't know", or, "it is terribly unclear to me."

Many --- perhaps most --- will reply that there are three gods, or that one is superior to the other, or existed prior to the other, or in fact, that only one is God and the others are something of the nature of demiurges or lesser gods, possessed of remarkable abilities, to be sure, but rather like us in every other way.

Saint Augustine literally wrote volumes on the subject (De Trinitate), as did Saint Thomas Aquinas and many, many, other great and learned Saints. Even the the most modest compendium using the utmost concision will, very likely, avail you little in the way of understanding the most fundamental features of this doctrine, this profound mystery --- and in failing to yield understanding in whatever measure, consequently failing to motivate love for that which is not understood.

Perhaps, then, as it is said, "a picture (in this case a diagram) is worth a thousand words".  So, for the sake of  those who should be teaching and do not, or are teaching and know little of what they teach --- but most of all for the children, we present you a picture --- in the shameful absence of words.

Our motivation is simple: if you do not know God, how can you love Him?

Oh ... yes, ...God does not "look like" the conceptual drawing ... and we truly fear that we are compelled to say that ...
 

[DelphiUser]

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've been told is true.

Your implication here was clearly highlighted in my reply, of only asking no study., so I said " This is not true, Joseph smith in D&C 9:5-9

5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

HUH? How do you mange to SKIP right over what your own Living Prophet® had written??

I did not, but you are only seeing what you want to see. You want to see an emotional, illogical unreasoning and unreasoned methodology which cannot be proven wrong, for that fits the template.

What is there is a Think, then Pray then:
A) will happen if you are right and
B) will happen if you are wrong.

totally provable On or Off, True or False, Right or Wrong.

From my post, I think I made clear what I thought you were saying when I said: We are commanded to Study before we ask, not just ask unthinking as you are saying here.

I am not Skipping over anything Joseph said, I am however reading it in context, for that is my reality, or my perspective. Reality Is.

[Elsie]

If God and Christ are in reality not of the same substance, then teaching that they are obscures the scriptures and keeps people from becoming like Jesus.

You've shown NO proof of this assertion.

KJV Philippians 2:5-8
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Elsie]

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've been told is true.

You want to quibble over words?

Ok then.

Do you like this any better?

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've STUDIED is true.

Whether you STUDY or are TOLD; it's a FACT that neither are true (IYHO) unless you get 'The Feeling'!

... you shall have a stupor of thought ...

I wouldn't want this curse on me; either!

[Elsie]

A) will happen if you are right and
B) will happen if you are wrong.

totally provable On or Off, True or False, Right or Wrong.

ONLY if one assumes that there are merely TWO possibilities: A or B

 

---

---

 

 

 

"It's better to know nothing than to know what ain't so."
--Josh Billings

[DelphiUser]

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've been told is true.
You want to quibble over words?

Not really, but that is what you seem to want.

Ok then.

Do you like this any better?

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've STUDIED is true.

Not particularly, feeling and burning in the bosom are only some of the ways truth can be manifested to man, we also believe in visions, angels, revelation, the gift of Tongues, etc.

Whether you STUDY or are TOLD; it's a FACT that neither are true (IYHO) unless you get 'The Feeling'!

Don't interpret my words and attribute them to me.

For example, God will not testify to you of the truthfulness of your own name, it's not about "signs", but about honestly wanting to know the truth.

God will answer when he wants to, I've had prayers that took months to get answered, but they were answered. I guess sometimes I just am not listening.

... you shall have a stupor of thought ...

I wouldn't want this curse on me; either!

Too late.

It does not seem to matter what we say we believe, or what we read in our scriptures, you "know better" than we what our scriptures mean, and what we really believe. Sheesh!

You might want to look up this word, or maybe this one.

Stop telling me what my opinion is, and stop telling me what I believe, I know and you don't.

Reality is.

[DelphiUser]

A) will happen if you are right and
B) will happen if you are wrong.

totally provable On or Off, True or False, Right or Wrong.

ONLY if one assumes that there are merely TWO possibilities: A or B

So you can be part right and part wrong about God? God handles concepts individually, testifying of truth and revealing error, I understand that you may not see how, but he does.

[Elsie]

It does not seem to matter what we say we believe, or what we read in our scriptures, you "know better" than we what our scriptures mean, and what we really believe. Sheesh!

You might want to look up this word, or maybe this one.

Stop telling me what my opinion is, and stop telling me what I believe, I know and you don't.

Sigh...

So upset because I merely point out what your 'scriptures' say!

I didn't lay the eggs; I merely colored them - red.

You want to 'interpret' them so they do NOT say what they plainly say; I can't stop you.

But for you to blame ME for what your founder wrote is, well... strange.

[Elsie]

So you can be part right and part wrong about God?

Of course!

[DelphiUser]

So upset because I merely point out what your 'scriptures' say!

No, not if you actually pointed out what they say, but you read a part, ignore the rest and thing you have understood. Wait, didn't you earlier try to prove God was a chicken with the Bible? What if I harped on that for the rest of Freeperdom wouldn't that get old? Wouldn't you get fed up with explaining over and over that it was an logical exercise with humor? You keep straining at gnats and swallowing camels whole and i just have to wonder when you will get full.

I didn't lay the eggs; I merely colored them - red.

It's not easter, and those aren't eggs.

You want to 'interpret' them so they do NOT say what they plainly say; I can't stop you.

LOL! no, I (the guy IN the church) interpret them as they were written, you the guy who does not believe them to be scripture are trying to tell me i don't understand my own scriptures.

Well, one of us does not understand, but it's not me.

But for you to blame ME for what your founder wrote is, well... strange.

Again, with the interpretation? can you actually read my posts, or is there a filter of some kind on your monitor? I blame you for trying to interpret my words and my statements of belief by your perspective, instead of taking them as written. Now if you are hungry, you will probably interpret this post to be an invitation to dinner, IT'S NOT A DINNER INVITATION!

[Elsie]

Again, with the interpretation? can you actually read my posts, or is there a filter of some kind on your monitor?

I blame you for trying to interpret my words and my statements of belief by your perspective, instead of taking them as written.

 

DU, I'm not trying to 'interpret' YOUR words and what YOU'VE written; but what JS had written, so long ago.

 

 

Joseph smith in D&C 9:5-9

5 And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore,

    you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

 

 

 

 

So, going back to the FIRST thing I said:

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've been told is true.

109 posted on 10/23/2007 5:09:24 PM CDT by Elsie

 

Therefore the question is; did JS emphasize feelings or not?

[DelphiUser]

DU, I'm not trying to 'interpret' YOUR words and what YOU'VE written; but what JS had written, so long ago.

Except that then you take those "Interpretations" and proceed to tell me a Mormon what Momrons believe.

Have you ever talked to some one who placed the The Wrong emphasis on the wrong Sylable It can be nearly impossible to understand them. I met a man in Taiwan who had learned english in Louisiana, it took me a half an hour to figure out he was speaking English. The combination of English + Southern Accent + Chinese made his speech almost unrecognizable to someone who spoke "Northern" english as a native.

Your Anti + Evangelical accent applied to Mormon doctrine renders it unrecognizable to a native "Mormon speaker" such as myself.

Stop telling me what I believe, I got that, and you don't.

Yeah, the word feelings does appear in the scriptures, the apostles talked about a burning in their heart while on the road to Emmaus, yet you do not talk about that as a central tenet of Christianity and how that is all you need. If you follow the link to luke in our scriptures, and then click on the word Burn, you get a page with the only Scripture linked to "Burn", which is the scripture you are misinterpreting D&C 9:8. You also get links to the Topical Guide on Teaching with the Spirit, and Jesus Christ, Teaching Mode of. How about a section of the Bible which needs no interpretation, James 2:14-26:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yet, I have been told be evangelicals it is not to be taken literally, it is just a story... I do not argue what they believe. I tell them I take it literally. on the other had you are trying to tell us how we must read our own scriptures that you don't believe in.

Fair is fair, I want to tell you how to interpret the Bible, and I'll start with James 2

So, going back to the FIRST thing I said:

You guys search for a FEELING to see if what you've been told is true.

I am telling you RIGHT NOW this is a misinterpretation of our scriptures by you.

You want to learn what we teach, what Joseph taught? Fine Joseph wrote a synopsis for people who wanted to start trying to understand us: THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

There is nothing in there about feelings, you are misinterpreting our scriptures.

Therefore the question is; did JS emphasize feelings or not?

No, it was one place, and he also recommended, visions, visitations by angels and other methods of being taught by God in short, seek confirmation from God. God will choose the method and timing of the answer.

you seem to impatiently have skipped Algebra and jumped to Calculus and then you are arguing with people who use calculus every day about correct formulas!

Anyway, The Focus is on study, prayer and then confirmation which May come by feelings, but that is only one of the ways it can come.

[Elsie]

You want to learn what we teach, what Joseph taught? Fine Joseph wrote a synopsis for people who wanted to start trying to understand us: THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

Bah!!

That is a CREED!!!

---

Except that then you take those "Interpretations" and proceed to tell me a Mormon what Momrons believe.

Sorry Charlie; I did not. I merely SHOWED you what the Founder of your Religion wrote.

---

Anyway, The Focus is on study, prayer and then confirmation which May come by feelings, but that is only one of the ways it can come.

Sorry; but that's NOT what your SCRIPTURE says!

Behold!

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

 

[DelphiUser]

I could have a lot of fun with a lot of scriptures:
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a cgift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
But, I chose this one... Behold, I say unto you, that you are misinterpreting a single scripture, written by a prophet of God, you dismiss other scriptures written by him, and focus only on the one word you think will make me squirm, you have failed to do so, yet again. You wrest the scriptures at your peril.

[Zuriel]

**It doesn’t matter if millions believe that, if it does match the original in doctrine, it is not the original church. I don’t care if it started a month after Pentecost 33 A.D.**

Should be: .....if it does NOT match the original....

(arrrgh, I didn’t proof read until today!)

[Zuriel]

Sorry I didn’t respond promptly, my work sometimes keeps me from the pc for days.

I was raised, instructed in, and followed the trinitarian theory for my first 28 yrs (am now 53). The co-this, co-that, and co-everything, yet separate and distinct thinking is full of inconsistancies. When these snags pop up, the concluding point always is ‘it’s a mystery’.

**Jesus told his disciples, “to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28: 19).**

My version has ‘name’ singular as well, but commas divide the titles (what trinitarians call names).
That’s part of what’s commonly called ‘the great commission’. All of the Lord’s commissions were great, including Luke 24:45-48 “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. And said unto them, thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem, and ye are witnesses of these things...”.

These men had been trained by the best, and responded by baptizing in the name of Jesus.

They knew that the saving name of the Father was Jesus. “I am come in my Father’s name...” John 5:43

They knew that the Son’s name was Jesus (multiple scriptures agree).

They knew that the name of the Holy Ghost was Jesus. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name...” John 14:26

That’s why the apostles, who obeyed Matt 28:19 (and did not simply repeat a command) baptized in the name of Jesus.

The apostle born out of due time, Paul, baptized souls in the name of Jesus. Later he dealt with a Corinthian church that had saints bragging about who baptized them instead of glorying in the Lord: “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” 1 Cor. 1:13

I consider the trinity description of God to be more confusion than mystery. However, I see on this thread that the Mormons definitely are heavyweights in the confusion category.

[Elsie]

That’s ok; for by the info you’ve given me, I’m sure OTHERS will ‘squirm’ in other threads.

Toodle ooo.....

[Elsie]

[DelphiUser]

LOL!

Why we squirm

[DelphiUser]

Articles of Faith # 1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

As for your argument that coming in the name of someone means you are them, it's really quite simple, have you ever represented someone (come in their name) without being the same person? (Working for a company, power of attorney, carried a message...)

I bring you this message in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Have a Day!
DU

[Elsie]

Acts 19:13-16
13. Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.”
14. Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15. [One day] the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”
16. Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.