Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"
{snip}
The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."
Take a look at these writings apart from your feelings re: LDS, & tell me what you think. It’s not a terribly long read, but potentially very insightful
“Peter is addressing “God’s elect, strangers in the world” (1Pe 1:1b), who have been given “new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (ibid 1:3b). Peter is clearly addressing all those who have come to Christ throughout these passages. He tells them that they are all to be a holy priesthood... ***thus a priesthood of all believers.***”
That last phrase is your own interpretation, it is what you are reading into the text. The passage says nothing of how one obtains the priesthood, it only acknowledges the presence of the priesthood in the church and from that you are jumping to a conclusion that simply being in the church confers priesthood on someone.
“In the Old Testament, we are told that among the roles of the priest were to offer up sacrifices of atonement (see Leviticus) and to teach the Law to the people of Israel . They thus stood between men and God, acting as mediators.”
Again, that is your take on it. They performed ordinances and taught, but they did so as servants of God, not as a mediator between man and God.
Also, the context of the verse that you cite is in reference to praying, we pray to the Father in the name of Christ. We can not pray to the Father directly (no mediator), and we can not pray in the name of any other person and have it received by the Father. Only through Christ can we approach the Father so we must pray in Christ’s name to have it received by the Father. All believers can pray, but that doesn’t mean they all have the priesthood, the priesthood isn’t even the topic here.
“It goes on that these people (“them”… all who have been purchased through Christ’s blood) have been made into “priests to serve our God”. All believers into a priesthood… the priesthood of all believers. I read what the text clearly says to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.”
You are reading into the text what you see as you look at it through the lens of the dogma you have already accepted. The text says nothing of how one comes to obtain the priesthood, once again it only acknowledges the presence of the priesthood in the church. Likewise for 1Pe 4:9. Nowhere does it say that simply being a believing member of the church grants a person any kind of priesthood authority, it only recognizes the existence of the priesthood in the church.
“(My comment on this) No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. (He 5:4)
This passage talks of Christ in His role as High Priest, but if you choose to extend its meaning even to the priesthood of all believers, they too do not take the honor upon themselves, but are “called (by God) to belong to Jesus Christ” (Ro 1:6). I’m not sure how in either sense this contradicts the priesthood of all believers.”
Heb 5:
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, ...
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Here we have a very clear statement on how one comes to be a holder of the priesthood. They are ordained in the same manner that Aaron was.
“And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office.” (Ex 28:41)
Ex 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office:
Lev 8:12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron’s head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.
If there was a priesthood of all believers, then anyone could have conducted the sacrifices or carried the ark of the covenant but that was not so, in fact Nachon was struck dead for touching the ark (2Sam 6:6-7)
Arron didn’t just get to minister on the basis that he was a believer, he was specifically called by God, by revelation to a prophet, and ordained to his position by Moses who was given authority of God.
We see the same pattern in the NT...
Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you
Act 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church...
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
There was no ‘priesthood of all believers’ in the OT or the NT, the priesthood was held only by those who were ordained to it. The whole idea of a ‘priesthood of all believers’ is a very bad one as well. Anyone can claim to be a believer and such a system leaves the door wide open for wolves in sheep’s clothing to enter in, claim authority, and mislead many.
“These 7 Sons of Sceva were not followers of Christ, but rather attempted to use His name for their own purposes.”
They believed that demons could be cast out in the name of Christ (otherwise they would not have done what they did), but that belief didn’t grant them any authority or power.
“It is obviously not human ordination or title that grants authority to cast out demons as Paul and other disciples were doing.”
How is it obvious when those doing so were ordained? Why would they even be ordained if there was no authority or power passed on in that manner?
“It is God alone who grants the title of priest.”
Yes, and he does that by revealing to his authorized servants who it is God wants them to ordain to that authority. This idea of a priesthood of all believers is a later invention of men, it is a spin off of the Reformation and didn’t exist before that time because with the Reformation came a need to somehow justify the existence of churches that could not trace back a line of authority to the apostles.
“Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most High Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, by his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God (He 10:19-20)”
It still does not say that all believers are priests by virtue of being believers. It only indicates that through Christ’s atonement we can enter God’s presence, the Most Holy Place being symbolic of being in God’s presence.
“I have answered using scripture to explain itself.”
You have quoted verses and then read into them ideas not stated in the text.
“If Mormonism does not even get these elemental teachings correct, how can you accuse Christians of interpreting incorrectly?”
Saying that you are right, so since we disagree we are wrong is not a sound argument, it is just your bias. We claim to have living prophets and apostles who through revelation know the fullness of the gospel. Where orthodox Christianity goes contrary to the revelations of God available to us, we hold orthodox Christianity to be in error.
D&C 42:11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.
Alma 6:1 And now it came to pass that after Alma had made an end of speaking unto the people of the church, which was established in the city of Zarahemla, he ordained priests and elders, by laying on his hands according to the order of God, to preside and watch over the church.
Alma 13
1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.
D&C 20:60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained...
D&C 27:12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
“As you are no doubt now discovering, Mormonism Apologetics is founded in defending the lies at the heart of Mormonism. To do this, they resort to sowing as much doubt as they can regarding the orthodox Christian perspective”
As I hope you are observing, anti-Mormons are founded in defending several doctrines that didn’t exist among the apostles and early Christians. To do this they sneer and smear evidence from the early Christian leaders and the Bible that they can’t address on a factual basis.
:
| A=B |
John 10:30 " I and the Father are one."
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| B=C |
John 14:16-18
16. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
17. the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. |
|
Therefore A=C
|
The CONCEPT “trinity” IS in the Bible. |
B>John 15: 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me : [KJV] [and if that isn‘t a clear picture of all three in one sentence of Jesus’s teaching the oneness in three --and the Hebrew word for ‘one‘ can also be translated ‘unity‘-- try reading the following sequence of scriptures … Deuteronomy 6:4 then John 1: 1; 14 then John 14: 5 - 11 then remind yourself with the Baptism blessing ‘in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John14 5 - 11: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
the trinity exists in scripture as Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The apostles founded churches and upon their deaths other bishops were appointed to succeed them in leadership.
The early christians left behind evidence of their beliefs, the trinity being among them....
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm
I said:
"Wrong. Many claim to be Christian, Mormonism among them, yet have a false and confused concept of the Person of Christ."
You replied:
And from my POV, it is orthodox Christianity that has a false and confused concept of the Godhead.
I would expect that to be your point of view, you are a modern day Arian/Gnostic in the garb of Mormonism.
When Jesus asked the disciples, "Who do YOU say that I AM?", it was because many had confused and wrong concepts of His Person. Peter's reply; "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.", that means something, and is defined by the Scriptures in the Bible, not the additional works of Joseph Smith and his plagerized BOM, or other works of fiction such as the Pearl of Great Price.
The Church from the very beginning, starting with the Apostles, believed and taught that Jesus Christ was and IS eternally Divine, co-eternal, co-equally Divine with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and NOT a created being as the Arians and the modern day Arians such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses falsely believe and preach.
That doesn't make either of us non-Christian however.
Sure it does. To be a Christian means something. One must believe certain things about God, Christ, Salvation, etc. To believe false concepts as Mormonism does of the Person of Christ and the Nature of God is to believe in a false god and false christ who cannot save anyone as that god and christ are immaginary and do not exist.
Grab a dictionary and look it up, there is no requirement to accept orthodox doctrines beyond an acceptance of Christ as Savior and Son of God.
A dictionary does not define what orthodox Christian beliefs are, the Bible does.
“the trinity exists in scripture as Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”
Show me where it states they are three persons in one being of one substance. We don’t deny there is a Father, Son and Holy Ghost, we don’t deny they are one God, we disagree with how the creeds define that oneness.
“The early christians left behind evidence of their beliefs, the trinity being among them....
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm";
Also, many of the quotes there, especially the earlier ones, do not claim three persons in one being or of one substance. If you examine a broader range of what they said, you will find many of them teaching things that are contrary to the creeds that came later on, for example Justin Martyr taught that Christ was second in rank to the Father, and the Holy Ghost was third in rank, contrary to the co-equal claims of the creeds.
You are free to take that chance.
However, therein lies part of the problem with Mormon doctrines pertaining to Christology.
Mormon Christology relegates Christ to a created being, and not the Eternal Diving Person of the Second Person of the Triune God.
I said:
"Biblical, historic Christian affirms the teaching of the Bible"
You replied:
What was the orthodox view in the 4th century was not the orthodox view of the 1st century.
Of course it was, that Christ was and IS the Eternal Second Person of the Triune God, who took on the additional nature of human flesh in the Incarnation was thoroughly taught and believed by the Apostles and the early Church from the very beginning.
The whole idea of the trinity evolved over time
Wrong. The Trinity was believed and taught from the beginning. You are making the mistake of confusing the coining of the term, "trinity", which codified the doctrine and the defining codification which came about in defense against cults and heretical groups false teachings. We have Ignatius, Athenagorus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr and the Church fathers teaching the Triune Nature of God from the Scriptures just as the Apostles did.
and relies on concepts of Greek philosophy not found anywhere in the Bible.
LOL, Greek philosophy holds no such concept at all.
From http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Godhead_and_the_Trinity
Next time cite a credible source. Wikipedia is not credible at all, any idiot and most do, can write anything they want there.
Hippolytus, an orthodox Trinitarian Christian was writing in opposition to Noetus and pope Callixtus I of Rome and the Monarchian Modalists.
He also had some very intersting thoughts about the plan of salvation that closely resemble LDS beliefs from “Against one Noetus” book X:
You will have to demonstrate that, for there is nothing resembling Mormon doctrine in the following exerpt from Hippolytus.
“Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya.6 And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics,6 but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell’s6 eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum6 has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God:7 for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality.7 This constitutes the import of the proverb, “Know yourself” i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God’s knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace7 with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,7 rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine7 perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!7”
Pretty interesting reading. Coupled w/ what Grig has posted, perhaps this isn’t as clear cut as you may have thought.
Perhaps you can actually make a point specifically.
On the contrary, Hippolytus was writing as an orthodox Trinitarian in opposition to Modalist heretics. You are confusing his citing their false beliefs with his own, which were most definitely Trinitarian.
Other than that, I see nothing definitive in those links re: the trinity.
Out of curiosity, perhaps you can give me your view of John 17:22-23. Seems those verses are far more in line w/ Hippolytus than w/ Noetus. BTW, how do those links match up against John 17:22-23 & the description of one?
Also, they say the apostles were replaced by bishops. originally, the apostles upon their deaths, were replaced by apostles. Who made the edict to replace them w/ bishops, man or God?
What makes me scratch my head is how so many can believe the edicts of the creeds that are directly contradicted or not mentioned at all in the bible, when those who came up w/ the creeds claimed absolutely no direct revelation. They fought over this things & in the case of the Nicene creed were threatened w/ exile if they didn’t agree. Does that really sound like a recipe for truth? Although I respect the opinions of others that are contrary to my views, I just don’t understand. Belief b/c of the traditions of man? Or belief b/c of revelation from the Lord? Personally I choose the latter. But, to each his own & I respect that.
We’ve had some interesting discussions here re: whether man can become like God. You’ve joined this late so perhaps this wouldn’t make sense to you. This was intended towards those arguments w/ those who have been party to this thread that were involved in those discussions.
Show me where it states they are three persons in one being of one substance. We don’t deny there is a Father, Son and Holy Ghost, we don’t deny they are one God, we disagree with how the creeds define that oneness.
Since you are fond of posting a deluge of cut and paste material, here is some in response from CARM, http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm, a credible source, and not an unreliable open source such as Wikipedia:
God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father.
They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. (See also, "Another Look at the Trinity")
Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.
There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13).
A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit is a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (Oneness theology). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).
The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.
The chart below should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.
The first step is to establish the biblical doctrine that there is only one God. Then, you find that each of the persons is called God, each creates, each was involved in Jesus' resurrection, each indwells, etc. Therefore, God is one, but the one God is in three simultaneous persons. Please note that the idea of a composite unity is not a foreign concept to the Bible; after all, man and wife are said to be one flesh. The idea of a composite unity of persons is spoken of by God in Genesis (Gen. 2:24).
There is only one God
The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God, (Isaiah 55:5).
The Trinity
FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT Called God: Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4
Creator: Isaiah 64:8 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4, 26:13
Resurrects: 1 Thess. 1:10 John 2:19, 10:17 Rom. 8:11
Indwells: 2 Cor. 6:16 Col. 1:27 John 14:17
Everywhere: 1 Kings 8:27 Matt. 28:20 Psalm 139:7-10
All knowing: 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Sanctifies: 1 Thess. 5:23 Heb. 2:11 1 Pet. 1:2
Life giver: Gen. 2:7: John 5:21 John 1:3; 5:21 2 Cor. 3:6,8
Fellowship: 1 John 1:3 1 Cor. 1:9 2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1
Eternal: Psalm 90:2 Micah 5:1-2 Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14
A Will: Luke 22:42 Luke 22:42 1 Cor. 12:11
Speaks: Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25 Luke 5:20; 7:48 Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2
Love: John 3:16 Eph. 5:25 Rom. 15:30
Searches the heart: Jer. 17:10 Rev. 2:23 1 Cor. 2:10
We belong to: John 17:9 John 17:6 . . .
Savior: 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6 . . .
We serve: Matt. 4:10 Col. 3:24 . . .
Believe in: John 14:1 John 14:1 . . .
Gives joy: . . . John 15:11 John 14:7
Judges: John 8:50 John 5:21,30 . . .
Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.
OK? So what was the beef w/ the pontiff all about?
“ranking” does not claim being separate in the godhead.
Our creed does make distinctions...
“We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen....”
...”We believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.”....
“We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son...”
Even in scripture, Jesus referred to a sort of “rank” by claiming to be one with the Father, but also claiming He could only do the will of the father.
So pointing out differences in the 3 persons is not a denial of the trinity.
You certainly won’t come across early writings claiming God the Father was a human being who conceived Jesus through intercourse with Mary.
In reality, you have it backwards. Noetus and his followers were Modalist heretics, which Hippolytus, the Trinitarian, was opposing.
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