Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"
{snip}
The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."
“And there is a well-established history of its truth.”
There is nothing that establishes that Christ walked on water, or that Mary was in fact a virgin when she gave birth, or that Christ did in fact live a sinless life except for the word of the apostles. Validating the existence of places and persons and some events doesn’t prove the Bible is the word of God.
“Smith claims he had plates. Well, those would be interesting... but they can’t be seen.”
There were many who did see them and handle them. They testified of it and their testimony is contained in the BoM.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns
Even when some of them became personally disaffected with Joseph Smith, they still never denied the truth of their testimony all their life.
“Smith claims he translated from an ancient language. Well, if he had written down the ancient language, that would certainly testify on his behalf... but he didn’t”
Actually, he did write down a sample of the language. http://en.fairmormon.org/index.php/Anthon_transcript The events in that article about Professor Charles Anthon fulfill a biblical prophecy in Isa. 29: 11
“The original translations were removed, so Smith had to redo them... but he’s got an unsustantiable story as to why the details wouldn’t match.”
There was nothing re-translated. Joseph translated the first part of the plates, written by Lehi. Martin Harris was his scribe had was taking a lot of flack from his friends and his wife who were quite hostile to Joseph’s claims, so Martin pestered Joseph to allow him to take the translation of Lehi’s writing to show his wife. Martin lost possession of the manuscript and God revealed to Joseph that a plot was afoot to alter the missing manuscript, then wait for Joseph to present a re-translation so they could falsely accuse Joseph of translating it differently the second time around and use that as evidence that Joseph was a fraud.
God instead told Joseph to just carry on translating from the point where he left off. God in his foreknowledge knew this would happen and and was prepared for it. The next part was Nephi’s account of the same events so nothing vital was lost and the plot against God’s prophet was foiled. I fail to see what is unsustantiable about Joseph’s account.
Marin Harris was there for all this, and he was quite willing to mortgage his farm, risk his money and his reputation, to get the BoM published. He had nothing worldly to gain from it, his actions demonstrate the he too believed the BoM to be the word of God.
“There’s no record of anything Smith claims,”
That’s painting with a pretty broad brush. I also disagree with the claim. There are many evidences of many different kinds that support the claims of the BoM, also evidence that ‘unique’ aspects of Mormonism were in fact part of early Christianity as Joseph claimed.
“and it requires believing that everything we think we know is false.”
Again that is a very broad brush. There are many doctrines in orthodox Christianity that we reject, but there is a lot of common ground as well.
“You persistently refuse to supply me with a reason to believe the seemingly outlandish claims of the Book of Mormon and the seemingly ridiculous claims of Smith.”
It isn’t our job to force anyone to believe anything. I don’t even know what claims you consider outlandish either. Even so, reason can only take you so far. There is a lot of evidence that indicates the plausibility of if it, but even with absolute proof of the Nephites, you still won’t know if the BoM is the word of God or not unless you approach God about it. Even if there was no evidence for the BoM at all (something often falsely asserted), arguing that lack of proof is proof they didn’t exist and the BoM a fake is a logical fallacy.
I find it hard to understand why a Christian would resist the idea of asking God about something so important.
“Inmans, have we NOT been told often that the “baptism” is into the BODY OF CHRIST and NOT into the LDS church?”
We consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be the only true and living church on the face of the earth today, hence baptism into the church is baptism into the body of Christ.
“AND, I have been told that baptism for the dead is NOT baptism INTO the LDS church.”
The church is the earthly kingdom of God. If someone died, had a baptism for the dead done on their behalf, and they accept that ordinance making it valid, they become part of the kingdom of God and the body of Christ, but not part of God’s earthly kingdom as they have already died.
“I’ve repeated verbatim what Morman A says and had Mormon B “ROFL” because he thinks I don’t know Mormonism”
And I’ve seen the same thing happen among Catholics. Pick any church and you will be able to find members who don’t have as good a grasp of the theology as others, and even those with very mistaken ideas of the theology.
Like I said, it’s like tasting salt. You can’t describe it to someone who hasn’t tasted it, you can only encourage them to taste it and know for themselves.
If you want to know what it feels like to have the power of the Holy Ghost confirm the truth to you, put the promise to the test and find out for yourself. Words won’t give you that knowledge.
And there were no contentions, save it were a few that began to preach, endeavoring to prove by the scriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses. Now in this thing they did err, having not understood the scriptures. ~ 3 Nephi 1:24
True, but at the same time it is good to be accustomed to the process, to have respect for it and to understand that this is time for reverent reflection on Christ. If you object to calling teaching those things to children by having them participate as ‘habits’ then describe it using words you think better.
I agree and I don’t . . . yes, Catholics are not necessarily going to know their own doctrine. Intelligent Catholics are going to disagree about some doctrinal issues, where the RC allows disagreement. What I don’t find is intelligent and devout Catholics not knowing the basics of their doctrine and I see that with Mormons at FR. Intelligent, obviously interested in their own faith, since they take the time to do battle on the thread, and yet two different posters will say two different things. I do think it’s a theologoically amorphous thing.
Can you answer the question about scripture? Is all Mormon scripture absolutely true or can the BoM contradict or supersede the Bible, can the D&C contradict the BoM, etc.
We don’t see any conflicts between any of our books of scripture.
We believe the teachings in them are true, but we also recognize that men are imperfect and the normal weaknesses of man can be evident in their writings. For example, Lehi had a vision, Nephi in seeking to understand what his father said of his vision sought for and received the same vision. Nephi recorded a couple details of that vision that his father neglected to notice amid so many other things he was shown. That doesn’t make Lehi’s account false or wrong, but it shows how human limitations can affect how truths are recorded in scripture. Likewise, we can see in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that they don’t all remember every detail of the same events the same way, and some events are not mentioned by some of them at all.
Thanks, I was just curious. No follow up here.
Have a good weekend if we don’t chat further before.
No. It is up to you to use a different word, it is after all your word.
Thank you, Grig, for at least being forthright. Too many LDS "hem and haw" when it comes to stating what the LDS church believes. By you stating forthright that We consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be the only true and living church on the face of the earth today, the flip side of this is for all to realize that the LDS church consider every other church as false (Satanic) and dead (as in 100% apostate).
The founders of Mormonism hadn't a clue what the Real Gospel of Christ IS. Romans 3:28 is both plain as plaster and as complex as a child's smile: The Gospel of faith in Jesus Christ has replaced the impossible requirement to follow the law without transgressing in even one jot or tittle else you are in violation of the whole law. Paul taught repeatedly that the flesh (that is the body and the soul/behavior mechanism) cannot keep the law, the Torah.
Mormonism teaches that one confess Jesus, then do all that you can do to keep the law so you will work your way to ‘deserving’ exaltation! If it is God in you to will and to do of His good pleasure, who is keeping the laws and ordinances of the Gospel? [caption: what is the 'work of God': John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. {KJV}. Romans 3:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law. {Douay Rheims Version}]
I would not presume to explain the particulars of what Mormons believe is ‘God’s Kingdom after this life’ … Mormonism appears to teach there are many levels in ‘that’ kingdom and that Mormons can earn their way to these differing levels; Mormonism assimilates some truth of the scriptures --like Paul‘s vision of the Heavens-- but they base their levels of Heaven assertions upon Joseph Smith‘s claims, then cite Bible passages as if they substantiate those Smithism assertions.
Paul told some Church members, 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. {KJV} The reason Paul gave this teaching is related to what Salvation is, when it happens and how it functions in the life of one ‘faithing’ in Jesus Christ. Works and especially keeping the law type works are not the means to salvation. Salvation in the Greek is ‘deliverance‘ (‘soteria’, related to ‘soter‘= deliverer); deliverance requires the Deliverer; Salvation comes when the Deliverer sprinkles His blood on the mercy seat and takes His place on the Mercy seat; deliverance comes day-by-day as He on the mercy seat transforms the soul of the faither as the old nature inherited from Adam is crucified to end its reign over you, bit by bit.
Once the human spirit is cleansed, The Holy Spirit of God comes to indwell that human spirit (that‘s why we ‘work out our own salvation with fear and trembling‘, it is the God of Creation Who is in you! … our ‘own salvation’ is the daily crucifixion of the old nature so the indwelling Spirit can transform you, and Jesus promised THAT Spirit would never leave you or forsake you once He‘s there) .
Transformation of the human soul/behavior mechanism will manifest works of righteousness/fruit of the Spirit (note the capitalization), but it will be ‘works’ which GOD does, not ‘all that you can do‘. Through The Word all things are made so The Son of God is the One deserving of exaltation and praise for HIS creative works. The Jewish believers were under the admonition to follow the law which could make no man righteous because no man but Jesus ever fulfilled it all without failure … but with faith Abraham and Rahab were counted righteous! It was ‘seeded‘ in the Old Testament that righteousness would come ONLY through faithing in His faithfulness. The perfect will of God is that we faithe in His faithfulness, so that His Son is the deserving One because He was first in Faith, even unto the death of the cross. [caption: Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.{KJV}]
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth (Greek word is ‘pisteuo’= faithe) unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision (Jews) only, or upon the uncircumcision (Gentiles) also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Faithe is an action word --action based upon belief sustained by confidence in God’s promises-- and your fuel level of faith --your confidence in the promise of God-- is renewed daily by the Word as your mind ‘hears‘)
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Without faith, it is your flesh, your nature inherited from Adam, doing all that you can do.)
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (If you are not born of the Spirit, you cannot renew your own mind for you have not the LIFE of God in you to Create new LIFE.)
I agree with you about the New Testament: it does stir the heart. However, I also find that the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon stir the heart as well.
Smith claims he had plates. Well, those would be interesting... but they can’t be seen. . . . Imagine if the apostles proclaimed Jesus had risen from the dead, but were shown a dead body, and they said, “that? O, that’s Jesus’ twin brother who was struck down for not believing.” That’s what Smith’s story is like.
I think your analogy is flawed. The apostles proclaimed that Jesus had risen from the dead, yes. But they were not shown a dead body; they saw the risen Christ. However, most of those who were converted afterwards did not actually see the risen Lord themselves. The converts had to accept and believe the apostles' testimonies of the event. Anyone asking to see the body of the risen Lord would be told he had ascended into heaven.
Joseph Smith testified that he had the plates. He showed them to others, who testified that he had the plates. Anyone asking to see the plates today is told that they were taken back to heaven.
Look, I believe in the Resurrection, as do most Christians. Yet I did not witness the Resurrection myself. I daresay that none of us has ever seen a man rise again after having been truly dead for a couple of days. Science and experience tell us that such an event is impossible. Those who claim to have seen the resurrected Christ 2000 years ago are long gone; we cannot cross-examine them.
My atheist friends say that the apostles' testimony of the Resurrection are ridiculous. What would you say to convince them?
In other words, how do you know that the testimony of the disciples and apostles regarding the Resurrection is true?
There is no flip side it is either, or thinking that denies that the Lord has more in store for his children who have a hunger and a desire to receive an increase in the word of God!
Would you like to take this one ... ‘no contradictions’?
“However, most of those who were converted afterwards did not actually see the risen Lord themselves.”
Actually over 5,000 saw the Risen Christ prior to His ascension.
How many saw Smiths’ plates?
So, what is the proof of Christianity‘s founding event, the Resurrection of Jesus? Hereafter is an abbreviated, paraphrased discussion as taught by Dr. Scott, a most anointed teacher of God’s Gospel through the unfolding of Bible verses.
To address this issue of Christianity’s fundamental truth we must first establish a few facts that we can agree upon. There is substantial historical evidence for these following points, so lets first establish them as points of agreement; the following facts are far easier to prove than the resurrection itself.
1. Jesus lived. None Christian historians from His lifetime write of him: Tacitus and Josephus.
2. Jesus was crucified by the Roman authorities under the accusation of the Jewish leaders … not the Jewish people, most of them had no idea of this event at the time of the execution.
3. Jesus was considered dead. The Jewish leaders were so convinced He was dead they demanded that Pilate place a seal on the tomb and a guard in the garden of the tomb! The Romans were convinced He was dead when they pushed a spear into His side and blood and water came out, so they didn’t waste the effort to mallet His legs to have Him died more quickly.
4. Jesus was buried in a known, accessible tomb of Joseph, a man actually on the Jewish Sanhedrin.
5. He was preached raised by the disciples who had followed Him but fled when He was arrested and tired.
6. The Jewish leaders had more reason to produce the body and prove the preaching false than we could have today, and their world was much smaller and less populated (a body could not be easily hid for days nor could it be moved easily).
7. The disciples were persecuted for preaching this resurrection message.
8. The tomb was empty.
If we can agree on these facts, a further discussion can occur, and should occur because such an event would be the central fact of Human History! Why? Because He made a few crucial assertions prior to the crucifixion and resurrection. He thought He was perfect before God; He seated all authority in Himself; He placed Himself at the center of the religious universe; He talked of eternity and Heaven as one from the inside; He proclaimed He would die a ransom, for the whole world had something wrong with it that only His death could remedy; He proclaimed that if killed, He would raise Himself from the grave, in a specific number of days!
Jesus came out of that tomb. So, did the disciples steal the body; did the Jewish Leaders steal the body; did the Romans steal the body; was the resurrection empty tomb and subsequent sightings of Him merely hallucination; did the women go to the wrong tomb; did He appear to be dead then resuscitate in the cool of the tomb; did the disciples lie about seeing Him after the crucifixion; or, were the disciples telling the truth as they knew it?
We can debate all the possibilities, but the explanation comes down to one of two possibilities: either the disciples were lying or they were telling the truth as they knew it to be.
Here is why we may be psychologically certain that the disciples were telling the truth as they knew it: there were cataclysmic changes in the Apostles following the resurrection and Pentecost; there are indirect evidences of the story consistency; the disciples paid an astonishing price to continue sharing the truth as they believed it; and St. Aquinas’ explanation, they died alone and could have recanted and lived without the fact being known to other disciples … not one shred of evidence has surfaced in the last two thousand years of hard looking critics that even one disciple/Apostle recanted. There is no way these men were lying! They were telling what they had witnessed and experienced.
The substance/power which raised placed Him in the womb of Mary, the power that raised Him from the grave is the power which comes to dwell within the professing faither in Jesus Christ according to His promise to you. The scriptures teach that ‘believing God is counted for righteousness’ … the ABCs of faith is to act upon belief sustained by the confidence that He will not break His promises. Faith (Greek word ’pisteuo’) is an action word which allows the indwelling Holy Spirit of God to transform the faither.
And how do you know? (I believe that; but how would you convince someone who does not?)
How many saw Smiths’ plates?
Besides Joseph Smith, at least eleven.
No; thanks to St. Peter!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.