Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"
{snip}
The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."
They ARE scripture? I’d’ve thought they’d have some status like the Catholics (and many Protestants) give the Apostle’s Creed; you have to hold it to be true, because it is based on scripture, but it, itself, is not scripture.
I gotta say, there’s a lot even in the profession of faith of the Pearls of Great Price that is, well, shocking.
>>We believe that men will be apunished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression <<
This seems to be a denial of a misunderstanding (an accidental straw man) of the doctrine of Original Sin: Adam’s sin makes our own sins inevitable; the purpose of baptism is to release man from the demonic oppression. (Yes, in Catholic liturgy, a baptism is called a Rite of Minor Exorcism.)
>> We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. <<
Nope, the bible is quite plain that we are saved by faith. Yes, we Catholics believe that! We just believe that works are a necessary manifestation of that faith (if it ain’t growing, you’re feeding it wrong), and that sacraments are a means of receiving the grace through which faith is given.
>> We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. <<
Wow, I did not know that Mormons were “charismatic.”
I just checked out the book of Abraham as I write this. Yipes! It is bizarre! The Chaldeans were dominated by Hamite Egyptians? Why isn’t this published in the Book of Mormon if it is also scripture?
That answer SOUNDS so essential and meaningful: who could possibly refute the personal witness of the Holy Ghost? But can you provide an answer to how do we know it is the Holy Ghost speaking to us? Too often all sorts of Christians end up sounding like they are talking about Tinkerbell (”Do YOU believe in faeries,” as Wendy asked). The test of the truth of the bible isn’t in our hearts, for all manners of pagans believe deeply in their hearts the truth of what they say. The test of the bible is in the mind.
So, now, tell me what do you mean by “the personal witness of the Holy Ghost”? And how is this to be distinguished from what was experienced by so many members of other denominations which Smith considered so much rubbish that he thought far more highly of Mohammed?
dangus my reply to you was not met to be offensive but the track record of these threads and so much hostility coming from many or some who feel the need to debunk etc.
But as I read over this morning thread you are really trying to know how discern the different in relationship of is this really a Spirit from the Godhead or something else!
When I received my testimony from the Holy Ghost it was so gentle, sweet are full of Joy something the opposition can not give nor imitate because it is not in him to give.
Meaning those attributes can not exist in evil!
In Gal 5 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
John 16: 19, 23-24, 26, 30
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
• • •
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
• • •
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
• • •
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
****
Luke 11: 9, 11-13
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
• • •
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil,(in unclean state) know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Doc and Cov 9
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
They did ask and their heart did burn with in
Christ in Emmaus
http://www.byu.tv/index.html?start=55.494&stop=179.90800000000001&show=&ep=http://qmplive.xlontech.net/byutv/stream/070723.qvt
Sorry this clip was in July so I think it is no longer stored.
Quite the contrary, Mormonism says study it out in your mind and ask God; don't take our word for it.
The asking must be done with "true intent," not with idle curiosity. That entails a willingness to act upon the answer you receive, to repent and to change your life as God directs. Jesus said much the same thing:
14 ¶ Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:14-17)
My Engineering students will tell you that buying the textbook and flipping through the pages is not enough. You must study it thoroughly and work the problems. Even that is not enough: to be an engineer, you must put into practice what you have learned.
It seems more prepostrous than any other religions I’ve ever come across, except Scientology.
Of course that is a matter of perspective. My atheist friends consider all of Christianity to be equally preposterous.
I’m not asking for something that specific. I’m asking you to define the terms used. I asked, “how is anyone to suppose that this is true?” and the answer I got is “the testimony of the Holy Ghost.” If you can’t begin to define that, you have refused to answer my question.
Allow me to answer your question with a question: How does one know that anything is true?
Yes, we believe the bread and water are symbolic of the body and blood of Christ. The effect of taking the sacrament worthily is a renewal of the covenant, we again pledge to follow Christ by taking it, he again cleanses us of our sins.
>> Quite the contrary, Mormonism says study it out in your mind and ask God; don’t take our word for it. <<
No, that’s just it. You say, “study these scriptures.” For what? The New Testament moves the human heart to desire what is contained within. Sure, it makes some shocking claims, but it resonates with the human heart. Then, you can ask, “sounds nice, but is it true?” And there is a well-established history of its truth. And the Old Testament to establish that the claims are the fulfillment of prophecies which existed among a people for hundreds and thousands of years without understanding them.
As for what is unique to Mormonism: The book of Mormon contains nothing which stirs my heart. True, huge chunks of the Old Testament wouldn’t be very stirring without the New Testament to fulfill it (Jeremiah, Numbers, Leviticus, and, frankly, Job). It justifies Smith’s unusual theology, but what attests to its truth?
Smith claims he had plates. Well, those would be interesting... but they can’t be seen.
Smith claims he translated from an ancient language. Well, if he had written down the ancient language, that would certainly testify on his behalf... but he didn’t
The original translations were removed, so Smith had to redo them... but he’s got an unsustantiable story as to why the details wouldn’t match.
There’s no record of anything Smith claims, and it requires believing that everything we think we know is false.
Children would giggle at the claims Smith made. (”A celestial dog appeared from the heavens and ate my homework!”)
You persistently refuse to supply me with a reason to believe the seemingly outlandish claims of the Book of Mormon and the seemingly ridiculous claims of Smith. Imagine if the apostles proclaimed Jesus had risen from the dead, but were shown a dead body, and they said, “that? O, that’s Jesus’ twin brother who was struck down for not believing.” That’s what Smith’s story is like.
“When someone does this, and comes away with, “It is false”, then you folks say the person didn’t ASK correctly, or some such.”
When God answers someone one thing, and someone else claims they got a contrary answer, do you really think that person should set aside the answer God gave to them based on the claim of some mortal?
“You say that GOD will ALWAYS answer a person and a demon CANNOT answer for GOD.”
No, God doesn’t always answer a person, there are conditions the person must meet. They must have faith in Christ and believe God will answer them, they must be sincere in their quest for truth, they must have real intent to know and live according to God’s will. Someone who is full of skepticism and clings to their bais, just goes through the motions with no intention of changing their life so they can claim they already did it next time they are asked won’t get an answer from God, but they can wind up claiming they got an answer for various reasons.
There is nothing stopping someone who’s intent is to find an excuse to reject it from latching onto the first thing that they can use to claim they are right, and Satan can try to deceive, but his deceptions will not be accompanied by the fruits of the Holy Spirit so they can be discerned and rejected by those in tune with the spirit of God and mistakenly accepted by those not in tune. Satan can also prompt people to lie outright, perhaps for the ‘good intention’ of ‘saving’ someone from Mormonism.
I don’t claim to be able to judge why some other person who claims an answer contrary to mine does so, I am only in a position to know of the answer that came to me. In the end, each person is individually responsible to get their own answer. I don’t care one bit what any other person claims to have been answered, I will take what God revealed to me personally over the word of every mortal on earth.
In the end all of us will stand before God and then nobody will be able to lay claim to having received an answer from God that God did not send. I’m perfectly comfortable with that, I look forward to it in fact.
“Does the LDS Church place “family” ahead of God, or not?”
No, one’s highest loyalty should be to God.
My, My...seems like some arguments from the past are being disputed here: Those who have not been baptized into our church
Inmans, have we NOT been told often that the "baptism" is into the BODY OF CHRIST and NOT into the LDS church?
Christians, what CHURCH are YOU baptized into?
AND, I have been told that baptism for the dead is NOT baptism INTO the LDS church.
“So, I’m not expecting that each and every story of Mormon conversions be one of objective reality. If many troubled souls simply find something as vague as an inner peace after meeting so many nice people in Mormonism, you guys are actually doing your job right. But is there any real evidence of truth, or just nice feelings?”
I’m really not clear on what kind of evidence you are referring to, or evidence about what. Not everything that is true has physical evidence to support it. I would point to the Book of Mormon being true as evidence that Joseph was a true prophet of God, but the evidence that the BoM is the word of God won’t come scientifically any more than the evidence that Jesus is the Christ does.
When it comes to things religious, in most cases the evidence is the existence of witnesses who testify of the truth, whose testimonies are confirmed they Holy Ghost to the hearts of those humbly seeking the truth, and whose lives (and often their deaths) reflect the truth of their testimonies.
Even if every aspect of Nephite civilization was absolutely proven by archeology, it does nothing to prove that the religious teachings in the BoM are true, that those in there claiming to be prophets are in fact true prophet of God. If you want evidence for that, put the promise to the test and find out for yourself. God isn’t going to force anyone to accept it against their will.
I honestly get the impression that LDS members are told many different things, whatever works best at the moment or is believed by whoever they are talking to, since the theology is so malleable. I see many different answers to the same question when I go to different Mormon sites or compare them to views here, or between the Mormons here. I’ve repeated verbatim what Morman A says and had Mormon B “ROFL” because he thinks I don’t know Mormonism (when it is the Mormons who don’t have any coherence or consistency). I would bet that the Doctrines and Covenants are chock full of inconsistencies so that it is impossible to construct a theology that is consistent. The theology depends on what problem you are addressing! I get the impression of sort of a Rorshach theology where you can see anything you want. I’ve never seen any awareness that there is another point of view on a theological matter, like you will see among Catholics or Protestants or whoever in the Christian world, where they say “we believe X and they believe Y.” Instead it’s ROFL . . . you think we believe WHAT?
Habit!!!! A habit are you kidding?
Communion is not a HABIT. Communion is a commune with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, in remembrance of His sacrifice.
Remember Me, Remember Me a habit that is just plain ..............
“This seems to be a denial of a misunderstanding (an accidental straw man) of the doctrine of Original Sin: Adam’s sin makes our own sins inevitable”
But infant baptism was started specifically out of the idea that a newborn baby is tainted by Adam’s sin. Even though they have done nothing wrong on their own, they were guilty of sin and thus in need of baptism right away to wash Adam’s sin away.
“Nope, the bible is quite plain that we are saved by faith.”
And those who have faith will obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Obedience is constantly preached by the apostles to those who are already Christians, and they are equally clear that those who do not keep the commandments of God will not have place in God’s kingdom after this life.
“We just believe that works are a necessary manifestation of that faith (if it ain’t growing, you’re feeding it wrong), and that sacraments are a means of receiving the grace through which faith is given.”
And that is what was said in the AoF, faith is the FIRST principle of the gospel. The works of repentance, baptism, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end in obedience to the laws and ordinances come AFTER having faith. Together they bring salvation through the atonement of Christ.
“Wow, I did not know that Mormons were “charismatic.””
We believe in the gifts of the spirit, and that God gives them to men of faith in these days at times when they are needed to move his work forward. We don’t subscribe to the kind of showy, irreverent displays often associated with the charismatic movement.
“The Chaldeans were dominated by Hamite Egyptians?”
That isn’t what it said, Abraham says his forefathers turned to pagan religions, including pagan Egyptian religions, not that Egyptians moved into his area.
“Why isn’t this published in the Book of Mormon if it is also scripture?”
Our scripture includes the Bible, BoM, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. It is also an open cannon of scripture and we expect that some time in the future more will be added.
>> whose testimonies are confirmed they Holy Ghost to the hearts of those humbly seeking the truth, <<
That’s just it: HOW ARE THEY CONFIRMED? Warm, fuzzy feelings? Or is there anything more objective than that?
Romans 6:3: Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
And another thing.......if your worship (communion is worship) is a habit.....IT IS NOT WORSHIP.
Any worship which is routine or viewed as a habit is not worship.
And another thing.......if your worship (communion is worship) is a habit.....IT IS NOT WORSHIP.
Any worship which is routine or viewed as a habit is not worship.
Is your theology that all of your scripture is absolutely true? In other words, can the Bible contradict the Book of Mormon, or the Doctrines and Covenants contradict the BoM, etc., or are all true and consistent?
did forget me or didn’t see my post?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.