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To: dangus

“This seems to be a denial of a misunderstanding (an accidental straw man) of the doctrine of Original Sin: Adam’s sin makes our own sins inevitable”

But infant baptism was started specifically out of the idea that a newborn baby is tainted by Adam’s sin. Even though they have done nothing wrong on their own, they were guilty of sin and thus in need of baptism right away to wash Adam’s sin away.

“Nope, the bible is quite plain that we are saved by faith.”

And those who have faith will obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Obedience is constantly preached by the apostles to those who are already Christians, and they are equally clear that those who do not keep the commandments of God will not have place in God’s kingdom after this life.

“We just believe that works are a necessary manifestation of that faith (if it ain’t growing, you’re feeding it wrong), and that sacraments are a means of receiving the grace through which faith is given.”

And that is what was said in the AoF, faith is the FIRST principle of the gospel. The works of repentance, baptism, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end in obedience to the laws and ordinances come AFTER having faith. Together they bring salvation through the atonement of Christ.

“Wow, I did not know that Mormons were “charismatic.””

We believe in the gifts of the spirit, and that God gives them to men of faith in these days at times when they are needed to move his work forward. We don’t subscribe to the kind of showy, irreverent displays often associated with the charismatic movement.

“The Chaldeans were dominated by Hamite Egyptians?”

That isn’t what it said, Abraham says his forefathers turned to pagan religions, including pagan Egyptian religions, not that Egyptians moved into his area.

“Why isn’t this published in the Book of Mormon if it is also scripture?”

Our scripture includes the Bible, BoM, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. It is also an open cannon of scripture and we expect that some time in the future more will be added.


414 posted on 10/12/2007 8:53:08 AM PDT by Grig
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To: Grig

Is your theology that all of your scripture is absolutely true? In other words, can the Bible contradict the Book of Mormon, or the Doctrines and Covenants contradict the BoM, etc., or are all true and consistent?


419 posted on 10/12/2007 9:28:32 AM PDT by Greg F (Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
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To: greyfoxx39; dangus; xzins; Revelation 911; Greg F; JRochelle; Osage Orange; colorcountry; ...
Herein is the substance of false religion compared to the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
"(1)And those who have faith will obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel. (2)Obedience is constantly preached by the apostles to those who are already Christians, and they are equally clear that those who do not keep the commandments of God will not have place in God’s kingdom after this life. These same statements could be made of Islam without changing a thing other than ‘Christians‘ replaced by Moslems and ‘Gospel‘ replaced by sharia! Why? Because the syllogism is not accurate, close, but not Truth untainted.

The founders of Mormonism hadn't a clue what the Real Gospel of Christ IS. Romans 3:28 is both plain as plaster and as complex as a child's smile: The Gospel of faith in Jesus Christ has replaced the impossible requirement to follow the law without transgressing in even one jot or tittle else you are in violation of the whole law. Paul taught repeatedly that the flesh (that is the body and the soul/behavior mechanism) cannot keep the law, the Torah.

Mormonism teaches that one confess Jesus, then do all that you can do to keep the law so you will work your way to ‘deserving’ exaltation! If it is God in you to will and to do of His good pleasure, who is keeping the laws and ordinances of the Gospel? [caption: what is the 'work of God': John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. {KJV}. Romans 3:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law. {Douay Rheims Version}]

I would not presume to explain the particulars of what Mormons believe is ‘God’s Kingdom after this life’ … Mormonism appears to teach there are many levels in ‘that’ kingdom and that Mormons can earn their way to these differing levels; Mormonism assimilates some truth of the scriptures --like Paul‘s vision of the Heavens-- but they base their levels of Heaven assertions upon Joseph Smith‘s claims, then cite Bible passages as if they substantiate those Smithism assertions.

Paul told some Church members, 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. {KJV} The reason Paul gave this teaching is related to what Salvation is, when it happens and how it functions in the life of one ‘faithing’ in Jesus Christ. Works and especially keeping the law type works are not the means to salvation. Salvation in the Greek is ‘deliverance‘ (‘soteria’, related to ‘soter‘= deliverer); deliverance requires the Deliverer; Salvation comes when the Deliverer sprinkles His blood on the mercy seat and takes His place on the Mercy seat; deliverance comes day-by-day as He on the mercy seat transforms the soul of the faither as the old nature inherited from Adam is crucified to end its reign over you, bit by bit.

Once the human spirit is cleansed, The Holy Spirit of God comes to indwell that human spirit (that‘s why we ‘work out our own salvation with fear and trembling‘, it is the God of Creation Who is in you! … our ‘own salvation’ is the daily crucifixion of the old nature so the indwelling Spirit can transform you, and Jesus promised THAT Spirit would never leave you or forsake you once He‘s there) .

Transformation of the human soul/behavior mechanism will manifest works of righteousness/fruit of the Spirit (note the capitalization), but it will be ‘works’ which GOD does, not ‘all that you can do‘. Through The Word all things are made so The Son of God is the One deserving of exaltation and praise for HIS creative works. The Jewish believers were under the admonition to follow the law which could make no man righteous because no man but Jesus ever fulfilled it all without failure … but with faith Abraham and Rahab were counted righteous! It was ‘seeded‘ in the Old Testament that righteousness would come ONLY through faithing in His faithfulness. The perfect will of God is that we faithe in His faithfulness, so that His Son is the deserving One because He was first in Faith, even unto the death of the cross. [caption: Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.{KJV}]

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth (Greek word is ‘pisteuo’= faithe) unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision (Jews) only, or upon the uncircumcision (Gentiles) also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Faithe is an action word --action based upon belief sustained by confidence in God’s promises-- and your fuel level of faith --your confidence in the promise of God-- is renewed daily by the Word as your mind ‘hears‘)
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Without faith, it is your flesh, your nature inherited from Adam, doing all that you can do.)
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (If you are not born of the Spirit, you cannot renew your own mind for you have not the LIFE of God in you to Create new LIFE.)

433 posted on 10/12/2007 11:58:58 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support. Defend life support for others in the womb.)
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To: Grig
Together they bring salvation through the atonement of Christ.

It's the TOGETHER that we have differences about.

450 posted on 10/12/2007 1:16:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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