Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"
{snip}
The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."
“And what do we have to support Smith’s claim?”
The personal witness of the Holy Ghost. I’ll take that over any man’s opinion of what a proper test should be and their evaluation of the the results of any such test. Finding an excuse to reject a true prophet (or even Christ) is easy.
"God’s pattern has been to call prophets and have his living prophets lead his people by revelation." The Apostles are still urging and the Holy Spirit indwelling those faithing in Christ is still leading His people; Jesus is The High Preist for our Church Age and for ALL ETERNITY.
Reverting to the pre-crucifixion pattern God used in Judaism is a form of denying Jesus as The Propitiation, the Propitiator, The High Priest forever, denying that He fulfilled the Law, and denying His plan to indwell those who believe He is the Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead. All the high-sounding spin the Apologists for Mormonism can post will not erase the denials of Christ's Lordship inherent in their heresies regarding 'restoration'.
“Speaking of communion, can any fellow walk in off the street into an LDS organization meeting house and partake of communion with the LDS members?”
Taking the sacrament is to renew the covenant made at baptism. Those who have not been baptized into our church don’t have a covenant to renew so they can partake of it if they wish, but there is no spiritual benefit (or harm) to them in doing so. Parents are encouraged to have their unbaptized children to take it as a means of developing a good habit and teaching them what it is about.
“See if you catch the contradiction in the following Mormonism syllogism: “The real test is to study the doctrine and ask God if it is not true. If you do so will [sic - ‘with’] real intent, God will show you the truth.””
Talk about trying to make one an offender for a word!
Consider the sentence: ‘Is it not true?’. You can look at it as ‘Is it (not true)?’ (asking if it is false) or ‘Is it not (true)’ (asking if (perhaps even implying) it is true).
If you really to split semantical hairs by those rules, apply that rule to the Bible as well. Consider:
1 Cor. 10: 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
The only problem here is with old English phraseology parsed incorrectly.
Even accepting that kind of parsing, I fail to see any problem. If you read the BoM, ponder it sincerely and honestly think it’s fake, I would still say pray to God, tell him that that is what you think of it, and ask if your conclusion is correct or not. The verse is not there to assert it is true or not true, the intention is to encourage you to pray and find out from God.
“Asking if something is untrue is a way to exclude God answering directly.”
That is your own idea, I don’t limit God’s ability to answer prayers like that and see no reason in scripture to do so.
“Notice how James doesn’t say ‘ask if something is untrue’ or ‘ask if it is not true.’ Wisdom is not ‘delineating what is untruth’; wisdom is knowing The Truth for to know The Truth you are freed from the untruth because it cannot stand in the light of Truth.”
Is there wisdom in not knowing that something false is false? Is there wisdom in not knowing that something true is true? It makes no difference whatsoever to ask if something is true or if something is not true. God is perfectly willing and able to answer either, and in either case his answer will impart wisdom.
“not an answer directly tied to the truth or falsehood of the B of M, a very clear rebuke for asking something that has at its root the implication that God has not provided sufficiently for me a new faither in Christ Jesus.”
Yet James says when God answers he ‘upbraideth not’.
“I have yet to read a Mormonism Apologist explain to me the difference between fruit of the spirit and fruit of the striving flesh.”
The fruits of the spirit are given to your spirit by the Holy Spirit, they are not something you can see externally, they are something you feel in your soul. By recognizing their presence you can identify when the Holy Spirit is present, and the Holy Spirit will not be present when false doctrines are being taught, rather it is his job to be there when true doctrines are taught so that people are lead to belive them. Look at what happened on the Day of Pentecost, those who heard were ‘pricked in their hearts’, they felt the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost.
Now Christ said ‘by their fruits ye shall now them’ and this clearly refers to externally visible results. Now if you are going to just brush off those kind of results as just ‘the fruit of the striving flesh’ and hence something to be ignored, then you are also saying Christ was handing out some really useless advice.
Now you have a point that those external results are brought about by human effort, but why is that effort made? What is it that motivates such effort? All human effort stems from faith, and so when someone had faith in something true, they will exert effort as that faith directs, and the results of that effort will be good fruit. If someone has faith in something false, they will exert effort as that faith directs and the results will not be good fruit.
The results of living the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints results in good fruit. Trying to find a way to claim that we are a thorn bush that produces grapes sets aside the word of Christ.
“It makes no difference whatsoever to ask if something is true or if something is not true.” It is a blindspot that those caught up in Mormonism cannot see beyond. If I stack up 98 monopoly dollar bills and include two real dollar bills in the stack, sticking out so they are plainly visible, (1)is that a stack of fake money? (2)Is that a stack of real money? (3)Is that a stack with spending potential of two dollars? How one asks a question of God sets the attitude of the asker ... God does not deal in untruths and half truths; 98% untruths are untruths ... the stack has two dollars worth; questions (1) and (2) are meaningless for the truth. What will follow now for many posts from the Apologists of this cult will be parsing to avoid The Truth.
>> I like jello <<
LOL! I almost joked about you still being able to eat Jell-o if you went Catholic. (Actually, I am setting some lime Jello right now.)
>> The personal witness of the Holy Ghost. <<
That answer SOUNDS so essential and meaningful: who could possibly refute the personal witness of the Holy Ghost? But can you provide an answer to how do we know it is the Holy Ghost speaking to us? Too often all sorts of Christians end up sounding like they are talking about Tinkerbell (”Do YOU believe in faeries,” as Wendy asked). The test of the truth of the bible isn’t in our hearts, for all manners of pagans believe deeply in their hearts the truth of what they say. The test of the bible is in the mind.
So, now, tell me what do you mean by “the personal witness of the Holy Ghost”? And how is this to be distinguished from what was experienced by so many members of other denominations which Smith considered so much rubbish that he thought far more highly of Mohammed?
What a strange thing for a Bible-believing Christian to write! Do you really mean to say that James—no less than an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ—failed to explain faith correctly?
I do not believe that James failed at all. His epistle seems perfectly clear to me, and it accords with my own experience of faith.
The funny thing is that your description of faith as an action term also seems quite correct to me, and it agrees with what James and the other apostles to taught.
“Do you really mean to say that James—no less than an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ—failed to explain faith correctly?” ... Yes Um, are you sure of what you wrote?... James an Apostle of the twelve?
The reason I asked is because during His ministry, the family of the Lord (except His Mother) were not followers of Him. It was only after Jesus appeared to James that he believed. He was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem for 19 years and remained a devout Jew. James was martyred because he would not recant having seen the Lord after the crucifixion.
I would say the test is in the mind and the heart. I have always been taught to study, ponder, and come to a decision, and then to pray for confirmation.
So, now, tell me what do you mean by “the personal witness of the Holy Ghost”?
I think you would find as many different answers to that question as there are Mormons. When it happens, you know.
And how is this to be distinguished from what was experienced by so many members of other denominations . . . ?
I have no doubt that God answers the prayers of all those who seek him in faith. Hence, if one asks to know by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Savior, God will answer.
. . . other denominations which Smith considered so much rubbish that he thought far more highly of Mohammed?
I don't recall reading that Joseph Smith ever described the other Christian churches as "rubbish," even though he considered the post-Biblical creeds abominable. He once said,
If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I shall lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them that my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship . . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 313-314).
Although I am sure that Joseph Smith wanted to save Muslims, I do not know how he regarded Mohammed. Since Joseph Smith's time, various leaders of the Church have expressed the opinion that God used Mohammed to accomplish his purposes.
If you don’t believe me when I say the Holy Ghost witnessed the truth of it to me, how is giving a detailed description of the experience going to change your mind? It’s still all just words typed by some stranger far away.
Besides, I don’t want you to rely on what I say, except to at least be open to the idea that it’s possible to pray about such things and get an answer from God. If you really want to know, apply the promise of the scriptures yourself and find out for yourself. Read the BoM, give it some honest consideration, and pray to God in the name of Christ to ask Him if it is true. God wants you to know the truth of it, he promised to answer such prayers when they are from sincere people with a real intent to find and live the truth.
How God will answer you is up to God, he knows how best to handle it for your case. When God does answer you, it will be by the power of the Holy Ghost, so the fruits of spirit (’love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance’ (Gal 5:22-23)) will be manifest at that time. Those positive, godly feelings will be with us when the Spirit is with us, Satan can’t give us those because he doesn’t have any of those and you can’t give what you don’t have. Satan relies on fear, intimidation, manipulation, confusion, anger, contention and other such fruits such as abound in his heart. In that way we can discern between the spirit of God and deceptions of Satan such as those that mislead others.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Muhammad was an inspired teacher raised up by God to teach His word. The Book of Mormon teaches: 'For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore, we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true' (Alma 29:8). In a letter written on February 15, 1978, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declared: “Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father. The great religious leaders of the world such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the Reformers...received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.... Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come... Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.”[1]
LDS Apostle George Q. Cannon stated: “I believe myself that Mahomed, whom the Christians deride and call a false prophet and stigmatize with a great many epithets --I believe that he was a man raised up by the Almighty, and inspired to a certain extent by Him to effect the reforms which he did in his land, and in the nations surrounding. He attacked idolatry, and restored the great and crowning idea that there is but one God. He taught that idea to his people, and reclaimed them from polytheism and from the heathenish practices into which they had fallen. I believe many men were inspired who lived after him and before him, who, nevertheless, did not have the Holy Priesthood, but were led by the Spirit of God to strive for a better condition of affairs and to live a purer and higher life than those by whom they were surrounded were living. But while this was the case, it was the Spirit of God that did it.”[2] Latter-day Saints accept all truth, wherever it may be found, as part of our religion -- whether in the Quran or in other good books.
Of course you are right that traditionally the Epistle of James is attributed to James the Just, not James the son of Zebedee or James the son of Alphaeus. (The writer of the epistle simply calls himself James, with no other identification.) My mistake.
Whoever wrote it, I see nothing wrong with the Epistle of James.
Very good. That was what I had in mind.
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. (Gal 1:19)
He wasn’t one of the original 12, but he was an apostle. There were other apostles besides the original ones. Matthias took Judas’s spot (Acts 1) Barnabas and Paul were also apostles (Rom. 1: 1; 1 Cor. 1: 1; 1 Cor. 9: 1; Gal. 1: 1, 1 Cor. 9: 5-6; Acts 14: 4, 14).
You are not entirely mistaken ... Paul referred to James and Peter and may have attributed ‘apostle’ to James in that letter, but James was not a traditionally acknowledged Apostle as one fitting the definition Peter used when Matthias was selected to replace Judas.
Thanks to both of you for clarifying the matter.
Every one of those quotes is long, long way off from endorsing Muhammad as a true servant of God like you try to portray it.
We believe that God has touched and influenced many people, including the founding fathers of the USA, the Christian reformers, and others. That doesn’t mean everything they did was right or that they had any kind of divine authority. It only means that God used them to lead others forward in some way great or small.
We believe that whatever is good comes from God, He is behind each step towards the truth. Many of those steps do not end at the truth, but rather lay a foundation for further steps so that line upon line he leads people and nations from darkness to light. If you want to fault us for taking such a charitable view, it is your right, but charity never faileth.
For all it’s flaws, isn’t Islam closer to the truth than the religions the Arabs were following before Muhammad? Isn’t there in Islam a common base that Christians missionaries can build on to bring them to greater truth?
On a side note, I’ve always wondered how much of Islam is actually based on what leaders after Muhammad established, and how much of what we know of Muhammad is accurate. Not that it matters much.
>> If you don’t believe me when I say the Holy Ghost witnessed the truth of it to me, how is giving a detailed description of the experience going to change your mind? <<
I’m not asking you for a detailed description; I’m asking you to simply state what you mean. At face value, you’d seem to be saying that someone appeared in a miraculous way, and said, “Hi, I’m the Holy Spirit. I swear that Mormonism is true.” I’ll presume you mean something a little more mystical. But what? Do you think Mormons are unique in having mystical experiences? Or was there something unique and particular to Mormonism about this? But you don’t even have to be THAT detailed. Just tell me what you mean by the “testimony of the Holy Ghost.”
>> Read the BoM <<
I’ve read it. It seems kinda silly.
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