It's conjecture but you make an excellent point, one that the Eastern Church Fathers recognized decades ago. Look upon their icons of the Blessed Mother and what do you notice? In all of them, she is pointing to her Son.
"Do as He tells you!"
Posted on 09/27/2007 11:58:52 AM PDT by NYer
Senior Chief, pinging you to a discussion of John 2, the wedding at Cana.
Responding to your post Arrogant Bustard
I started to say “Playing devil’s advocate” . . . but it seemed wrong in this context. : )
What you say regarding God’s omniscience and prayer is orthodox, my problem is that I haven’t seen a good orthodox explanation of what Christ meant when he said “my time is not yet come” at the wedding at Cana. It’s there for a reason; I just don’t know what it is!
And as John Paul II pointed out, Mary here also anticipates the faith of the disciples who will come to believe in Jesus only after they have witnessed the miracle of water being changed into wine (Jn. 2:11). Mary, on the other hand, believed in Jesus’ supernatural power before she ever saw it manifested.
Wasn't the whole Jesus-being-conceved thing a miracle to Mary? :-P
LOL ... took me a minute....
So ... perhaps Christ is changing His mine (in His human nature).
I really can't accept the "changing God's mind" bit ...
;’}
Figured you’d appreciate it.
Jesus did a lot of turning water into wine (the message of the OT brought back from the dead). Also feeding multitudes with a couple fish and a basket of breadloaves (the NT parables). Too bad more of his listeners didn’t bother to write it down and most of what we have now is the general stuff and little of the particulars which is where he was most convincing.
John Adams addressed his wife as “Madam.” These days, the term doesn’t convey the respect it did in the 18th Century ...
You make an interesting point. Have you ever wondered why our Lord did not instruct His Apostles to document events in writing. Had He intended that these be the foundation of faith for future generations, it seems He would have written them down Himself. Instead, He sent His disciples out to preach.
When we think of convincing others, doubting Thomas comes to mind - "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." How weak we are! We need portents and signs to believe. St. John recognizes human weakness and writes:
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.But these are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
John 20:30-31
I’m approaching the topic obliquely ... can God change His Mind (in His Divine Nature)? I think not ...
So ... perhaps Christ is changing His mind (in His human nature).
____________________
That’s a good take on it. It doesn’t require process theology. I threw that out as a possibility, a changeable plan of God, or a plan with alternate paths, because it is a mysterious statement about it not being his time by Christ. Since he was talking about “his time” I viewed it as the eternal plan of salvation. I can more comfortably put this within the mystery of the human and God nature within Christ and how they interact, the same place in my disordered mind as I keep “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” rather than in a nascent process theology.
It still is mysterious though, in that his human nature would have a plan that was preferred to the plan of God. Sort of like his prayer: “Abba, Father, everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will but what you will.”
Matthew is thought to be an eyewitness, although the book of that name was apparently written and translated from his account and not by Matthew. Mark and Luke were possibly also written from the same Matthew document and appear to be collections of folksy daily doings. John was also an eyewitness and wrote his book directly in passable Greek and in a different and systematic manner. But, we have what we have in writing and the essentials are there. The eyewitnesses are long gone, but that shouldn’t matter.
It's one of my favorite NT passages ... you can almost see Jesus saying, "Awww, Mommmmmmm!"
It's an example, I think, of a couple of things. First, there's that whole Jewish thing: "Obey God, obey your parents." So you can see it in that context.
There's also something else, though, and to me it's reminiscent of this story:
As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. And Jesus said, "Who was it that touched me?" When all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!" But Jesus said, "Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me." And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed. And he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace." (Luke 8:42-48)
It's almost as if Jesus is "powerless" to resist those who show faith in His power. And Mary showed similar faith, so it's like he had to follow through.
As a side note, Jesus made a couple of hundred gallons of wine at the wedding in Cana....
I think it's Christ's way to ask for cooperation and belief before he works a miracle. Over and over again he challenges people, and when they respond in faith and truth, he commends and rewards them. The Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7, the two blind men in Matthew 9 . . . I'm sure we can think of more.
Mary was just the first one (I do think I can see that 'mom look' before she turns to the servants and says, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.")
Our Lord lovingly seems to decline: "What is that to Me and to thee? My hour is not yet come." Why? In order to call attention to that all-important element which made Him advance, as it were, the hour of His miracles - namely, Mary's abiding faith in His Divine Omnipotence. How much faith, indeed, is concealed in those words. "They have no wine;" "Whatever He shall say to you" - although you may not understand the motive of His command - "do ye." It was very important to call attention to this persevering faith in His Divinity, lest it appear that He was performing the miracle from a social motive, for the private benefit of His friends and acquaintances. Since Christ was not testing Mary's faith but rather showing unto us its perfection, He used a Hebraism which conveyed the idea at once of an importunity and an assurance of a request granted.
It's conjecture but you make an excellent point, one that the Eastern Church Fathers recognized decades ago. Look upon their icons of the Blessed Mother and what do you notice? In all of them, she is pointing to her Son.
Just for you three because you’ll really appreciate this:
“The Holy Virgin is herself both an honourable temple of God and a shrine made pure, and a golden altar of whole burnt offerings. By reason of her surpassing purity [she is] the Divine incense of oblation, and oil of the holy grace, and a precious vase bearing in itself the true nard; [yea and] the priestly diadem revealing the good pleasure of God, whom she alone approacheth holy in body and soul. [She is] the door which looks eastward, and by the comings in and goings forth the whole earth is illuminated. The fertile olive from which the Holy Spirit took the fleshly slip of the Lord, and saved the suffering race of men. She is the boast of virgins, and the joy of mothers; the declaration of archangels, even as it was spoken: “Be thou glad and rejoice, the Lord with thee”; and again, “from thee”; in order that He may make new once more the dead through sin.” +Gregory the Wonderworker
**This scene also serves as a pattern for Marian intercession. Just as Mary at Cana noticed the family’s needs before anyone else did, so Mary in heaven continues to notice our needs before we do. And just as Mary at Cana brought those needs to Christ, so does she continue to bring our needs to her Son through her intercession for us. In Redemptoris Mater, John Paul II wrote that this scene at Cana exemplifies “Mary’s solicitude for human beings, her coming to them in the wide variety of their wants and needs.” **
The Blessed Virgin Mary — our intercessor. Just as she interceded for the bridge and groom at the Wedding at Cana, so she intercedes for us upon our requests. But we have to ask!
Amen!
While praying the Glorious Mysteries of the Rosary one night, I paused in reflection on the Announcement to Mary. Suddenly, it hit me that the Creator of this ...
Who also created Mary, would ask for her permission to become the mother of His Son, the Savior of the World.
Luke
Chapter 1
- 26
- 10 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
- 27
- to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.
- 28
- And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."
- 29
- But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
- 30
- Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
- 31
- Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.
- 32
- He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, 11 and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
- 33
- and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
- 34
- But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?" 12
- 35
- And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
- 36
- And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived 13 a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
- 37
- for nothing will be impossible for God."
- 38
- Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.
How many times had I heard this Gospel proclaimed or read it at home. But that night was different. It was as if someone had suddenly turned on a light. There it was ... Mary's "yes" when she could have said no. More importantly, there was the Creator of the Universe asking for her permission, when He could have simply said "it's done".
This was no ordinary woman. This is the Mother of God Incarnate, Jesus Christ. How many swords pierced her loving heart as a result of that fiat. What greater love can there have been than between Mary and her Son, a true gift from God. How can anyone render her any less dignity than that which she deserves.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
pray for us sinners
now, and at the hour of our death.
Amen
Thank you — what a blend of holy and homely images!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.