Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church

However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.

The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.

Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.

Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.

The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.

However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!

Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.

All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.

One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.

Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.

One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.

During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?

Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?

Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?

One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.

Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.

In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.

Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.

What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.

The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.

Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?

Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.

Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.

Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.

At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.

[And you take that as some historical evidence that the Israelites are the Royal families of Britain!]

I have no idea. I would doubt it because Judah was in Palestine, not in Europe, and Judah held the royal line.

good.

There are scratch drawings of figures dressed in Israelite priestly garb on Assyrian tablets from Assyrian outposts between Assyria and Turkey as it was at that time. Israel, after God allowed them to be taken by the Assyrians, was put with other people on the northern border of Assyria as a buffer. As I said in my prior post, you have population problems saying they merged with Judah in Palestine, or were completely wiped out.

Why is that?

If those Israelites dispersed throughout the Assyrian Kingdom they would have been taken over by the Babylonians who in turn were taken over by the Persians.

Over time, they would have been considered to be Jews as were those taken captive a hundred years later.

Many probably returned to Palestine, or intermarried with the local populations, losing their Israelite identity over time.

I have fought this battle years ago on many threads. This is a highly emotional topic, as evidenced by your approach.

[ British Israelism is simply nonsense and an attempt put the British/Americans as the center of God's Plan, being blessed as Israel, instead of simply acknowledging the fact they are blessed as Gentiles because they blessed Israel. ]

That's your problem? You want God's plan to be limited to the remnants of Judah? Why? Maybe God's plan is to include the mass of Earth's population. Why would that bother you? Are you privy to God's plan?

Actually, God's Plan is laid out very clearly in Scripture.

And no one is claiming that it is only limite to the remnants of Judah.

What we are claiming is that all people from all 12 tribes are present in the world and we call them Jews.

There is no separate group called 'Israelites'.

In 1Cor.10:32, Paul says give no offense to three different groups of people, Jews, Gentiles and Church.

Had a 4th existed known as Israelites, he would have included them as well. >

The other 10 tribes are considered to be Jews, as is made clear by Paul's statement.

Of course, I can see the jealousy of the Jews toward that notion, having God's protection, and now having to share it with a great multitude. But what's your problem with it? Are you Jewish?

Actually the Jews are jealous, of the salvation of the gentiles (Rom.11:11) and that jealously leads some to salvation.

When the fullness of the Gentiles enters into salvation, then the church will be removed (rapture) and God will again start dealing with the Jew directly-all 12 tribes (Rev.7).

Until then, the Jew is under the curse of Deut.28, being dispersed and dispised.

But the Christian is suppose to protect him even though he is an enemy of the Gospel, he is still beloved for the father's sake (Rom.11:28)

I would think the Jews would, as a practical matter, be relieved, having so many brothers under the convenant to be with them in their travails. You seem to be happy to see them go it alone.

I have no idea what you are talking about in this paragraph.

[ Now, I have made it clear that just because one believed in British-Israelism that made them anti-sematic, only that there were variants in it that were and it seemed to lead its adherents to Legalism instead of the Gospel of Grace. ]

I'm sorry. I can't get the sense of this paragraph. Believing that brothers under the covenant are in Europe and all over the world in vast numbers is antisemitic? I would think wanting to isolate Judah would be antisemitic.

Well, no one is isolating Judah.

The Jew is everywhere, and is considered a Jew no matter what tribe.

You seem to be very confused on the issue.

[ You are right to a certain extent. There appear to be radical factions in the groups that believe that Israel is spread worldwide. Those in that faction seem to just hate Jews, so they want to replace them as impostors. ]

Yes, so? Nut factions are in every group everywhere. Remember Jim Jones?

Now what does Jim Jone have to do with anything?

British-Israelism is simply nonsense and so are your comments.

[ Now, I could provide you with links to anti-British-Israelite writings that explain the historical and Biblical fallacies of it if you would like. ]

Thank you, but I've probably read it all in 2001 and refuted most of it with simple logic and Bible prophecy. The effort was to prove the tribes did not go some place. Very hard to prove a negative.

Well, if you can't show that the tribes had migrated then the view is built on a very shakey foundation!

At this point in history, only God knows. For us it is what we want to believe. Why do you want to believe that the Jews are cursed with isolation, and the remnants of Judah are all alone to face the world, and God broke his promise to Israel? You make no sense, seemingly supporting the Jews and being against their practical protection and safety in numbers at the same time.

God did not break any promise with Israel.

They are dispersed now but will be regathered and reunited into a Millennial Kingdom under the Lord Jesus Christ.

Today all Israelites are Jews and all Jews are Israelites.

You seem to be very confused on what Premillennial/dispensational theology teaches about Israel

[The Israelites are Jews and the Jews are Israelites.]

It is true that the Jews are Israelites. It is not true that Israelites are Jews. Judah was one tribe among 12. This is not arguable.

It is arguable since the Southern tribes (the Jews) were exiled and were under Persian control.

Those same lands that Persia controled were once Assyrian lands and thus, the Jews and Israelites were brought together again and were come to be known as Jews by the Gentiles.

So this little word game that you guys play is just nonsense.

You only choices in explanation of what happened to the great mass of Israel is A) they were wiped out, B) they moved elsewhere after the defeat of Assyria and C) they moved over to Palestine and merged with Judah.

No, there is 4th choice, they remained in the Assyrian lands and were absorbed into the local population.

And that seems far likely.

A is contrary to God's promise. C is impossible because there were only about 500,000 in Palestine during the time of Christ. The bulk of Israel would have pushed it by millions, according to the count of fighting men recorded in the Bible. B is the only reasonable choice.

No, the only reasonable choice is D, the nations stayed where they were and blended into the local populations.

That is some logic you have!

Hosea 1:10-11 predicts the population of children of Israel will be like the sands of the sea when it recombined with children of Judah. This could not happen if the bulk of the tribes were wiped out, so A is out of the question.

Yes, there will be a rebirth of Israel, all 12 tribes as we see today.

The Northern tribes are blended with the South and are known as Jews.

Many from the North had gone South after the split and many likely also had returned after the Babylonian captivity.

All tribes were in Israel when the Lord appeared and were known as Jews.

It would appear that to believe that believing either A or C defines the moonbat. A moonbat believes in what he must believe in to hold together his worldview regardless if it makes no sense and there is evidence against it.

No a moonbat makes up his own argument and then argues it.

You have overlooked the most likely scenerio, that the 10 Tribes were absorbed into the local populations.

Captive tribes do not migrate anywhere without permission

The Jews had to get permission from Cyrus to do so.

I truly don't see what your resistance is. It can't be intellectual and scholarly, there's too much emotion.

And I can't believe you think what you have written to be any kind of argument.

Clearly, you love circular reasoning.

What threatens you about the notion that the children of God spread all over the world? If they did, and now make up the population of nations, the remnants of Judah would indeed be blessed with all these brothers under the covenant, wouldn't they?

There are only three group of people in the world, Jew, Gentile and Church.

Israelites are Jews.

Blessing to Gentiles come by blessing the Jew who is under God's judgement right now.

Do you not like Jews and want them to be alone in their challenges?

No, Gentile nations should help them, and they are the Sheep nations of Matthew 25.

They are not Israelites.

Clearly,you are just another confused British-Israelite.

And what is worse, you think you are being logical!

[Yes, the Jew is still blinded, that is a mystery, but after the rapture of the church, and the Tribulation, her eyes will be opened (Jer.31:31, Heb.8:8)]

The Jew and most of the House of Israel is still blinded and you are among them. There is no rapture of the church.

The 'House of Israel' and the Jew are one and the same today.

As for the rapture, there will be one (1Thess.4:16)

I see why you are so against the tribes issue. It is all part of your rapture doctrine. If there is no rapture then we will all be here in the tribulation (exactly as the Word of God tells us we will be). In your mind, only the Jews will undergo that so we can't be part of them or there would be no rapture.

Huh?

The church is raptured, which includes today, all saved Jews and Gentiles who become new creatures in Christ (2Cor.5:17), so that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ (Gal.3:28).

So....we are back to where this argument started. the false doctrine of Rapture.

No, the Rapture is a true doctrine.

The bride of Christ is removed before the week of Jacob's trouble begins (Jer.30:7), Daniel's 70th week.

The bible teaches that no one can keep the Ten Commandments and if you are doing so to get saved you are following a false Gospel. Okay, then let us all go out and murder, steal, lie and do every evil thing we can think of but if we took that walk down the aisle of your church then we are in great shape. Is that your idea of Christianity? Is that what you think God wants. Wake up FTD.

What God wants is you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Then you are suppose to grow in grace and keep all of the Commandments by being filled with the Holy Spirit (Rom.8)

No one is suppose to be keeping the Law, we are under Grace, the royal law of liberty (Jam.1)

[ Paul called an anathema on anyone preaching your false Gospel.

And he was correct - stop preaching it.

Why should I stop preaching it?

Many people think that their works can save them or keep them saved-they can't.

If those Israelites dispersed throughout the Assyrian Kingdom they would have been taken over by the Babylonians who in turn were taken over by the Persians. Over time, they would have been considered to be Jews as were those taken captive a hundred years later. Many probably returned to Palestine, or intermarried with the local populations, losing their Israelite identity over time.

The Israelites were not dispersed through the Assyrian kingdom. They were placed with other peoples at the norther border of Assyria to act as a buffer.

Their stay there was at least 200 years, 8 generations. Even with any attrition the bulk thereof returning to Palestine would have pushed the region way over its count of 500,000.

Where is there indication the the Babylonians conquered the Assyrians, and when did that happen?

"Many" returned to Palestine? Where did the rest go, if, as you say "many" returned to Palestine?

And where do you get the foundation for this supposition?

There are a lot of conceptual problems with your theory and logic problems as well as historical problems. And, you continue to have problems with the existence of Israel as Hosea 1:10-11 predicts.

It sound as though you want the present Jews to be the sum total of God's people.

Why?

Actually, God's Plan is laid out very clearly in Scripture.

Where?

And no one is claiming that it is only limite to the remnants of Judah.

Who else, then, specifically, in the numbers required by Hosea?

What we are claiming is that all people from all 12 tribes are present in the world and we call them Jews.

Not near enough of them. And they are diminishing with so many marrying nonJews.

There is no separate group called 'Israelites'.

That's your statement.

In 1Cor.10:32, Paul says give no offense to three different groups of people, Jews, Gentiles and Church. Had a 4th existed known as Israelites, he would have included them as well.

1Cor. 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Of course, the vast portion of Israelites were comprehended in the "church of God", because they were of the church of God. Dig?

These were the people that Jesus sent the disciples to minister to. Remember your Bible?

Actually the Jews are jealous, of the salvation of the gentiles (Rom.11:11) and that jealously leads some to salvation.

That may have been those Jews. I'm talking about these Jews.

When the fullness of the Gentiles enters into salvation, then the church will be removed (rapture) and God will again start dealing with the Jew directly-all 12 tribes (Rev.7).

All 12 tribes would have to be here, wouldn't they. In numbers deserving of being called "the sands of the sea", right? Will they magically appear in those numbers then?

Please cite the specific wording of the scripture that lead you to the conclusion above.

Until then, the Jew is under the curse of Deut.28, being dispersed and dispised.

The Jews, that is, Judah, whose lineage gave us the Christ, and who refused to acknowledge Him. The other Israelites are not included.

But the Christian is suppose to protect him even though he is an enemy of the Gospel, he is still beloved for the father's sake (Rom.11:28)

You are correct. God will make good His promise to the Israelites. Hosea predicts it.

I have no idea what you are talking about in this paragraph.

I said, "I would think the Jews would, as a practical matter, be relieved, having so many brothers under the covenant to be with them in their travails. You seem to be happy to see them go it alone."

You deny that there are great numbers of Israelites in the world willing to stand by their brothers under the covenant. There are few Jews and their number are diminishing. Yet, you passionately argue for their isolation and among the worlds peoples.

I argue for there being a multitude of brothers to stand with them.

Well, no one is isolating Judah.

You are.

The Jew is everywhere, and is considered a Jew no matter what tribe.

There are a few in this country and a few in that, and has been historically so. And a number in Israel. Few in the world.

Now what does Jim Jone have to do with anything?

An example of a few nutjobs in every population. You really didn't understand my example?

British-Israelism is simply nonsense and so are your comments.

Well, sez you. If God's plan according to Hosea was to bring vast number of the children of Israel together with the children of Judah, there must first be vast numbers of the children of Israel. A very logical and simple way for God to realize His plan would be to disperse all His people into nations composed of His people, then at the Hosea point, reveal to them their identity.

Well, if you can't show that the tribes had migrated then the view is built on a very shakey foundation!

I did. It's very simple. Israel were given by God over to the Assyrians for their sins. The Assyrians put the mass of men women and children that was Israel on its norther border to as as a buffer. With Israel were other peoples in that position. After a couple hundred years Israel allied with those others managed to whip Assyria and get loose. They then in their mass of tribes moved north toward Turkey.

There are thousands of translated Assyrian tablets in the British museum. Some of the tablets clearly showed impressed drawing of Israelite priests. Where there are priests, there are men women and children. Some of those tablets were identified as coming from Assyrian outposts north of Assyria after the final conflict.

Sparse as this evidence is, it does establishes a presence and a vector. I think this is more than you have.

God did not break any promise with Israel.

If He wiped them out, He certainly did.

They are dispersed now but will be regathered and reunited into a Millennial Kingdom under the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree. But "dispersed" may also mean composed of, which is the only way the numbers required can be there.

Today all Israelites are Jews and all Jews are Israelites.

You keep saying that, but with no evidence historical or logical.

I can only come tot he conclusion that this is what you want to believe.

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king and without a prince....afterward shall the children of Israel return and seek the Lord their God and David their king and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days (Hos.3:4-5)

To me, this is speaking about God's children forsaking Him for other religions, idols, etc. The King and Prince is Christ, not an earthly king. In the latter days, all of the children of Israel will seek Him.

In 1Cor.10:32, Paul says give no offense to three different groups of people, Jews, Gentiles and Church....Had a 4th existed known as Israelites, he would have included them as well.

The Church, as Paul used it here, means: "The Greek word ekklesia means assembly, or a gathering of called-out ones. It can be used of Israel, as a People called out from the rest of the nations (Gen.28:3) or of the tribal council of Simeon and Levi, those called out from each tribe, or of an assembly of Israelites called out for worship or any other purpose. Finally, the special Pauline usage of ekklesia differs from all these. Other assemblies consisted of called-out ones from Jews, or from Gentiles (Acts 18:22) but this new body is of called-out ones from both." E.W. Bullinger

So...Paul does mention the Israelites along with the Jews and Gentiles - they are the church.

Until then, the Jew is under the curse of Deut.28, being dispersed and dispised.

It seems all of God's children didn't follow His commandments and statutes, and many continue that today. Some in the world wonder why they are cursed. They should study that verse for the answer. Please note vs.64, where it states: And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And He did.

That verse answers your question, "Well, if you can't show that the tribes had migrated then the view is built on a very shakey foundation!. God scattered them.

As for the rapture, there will be one (1Thess.4:16)

This is the subject that started this discussion. I must disagree with you on this too. I believe scripture tells us what to do in end times, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, and that we will be here. If you want to argue those scriptures I will but if not please remember, the anti-christ comes first pretending to be Christ. Do not follow him. If we all get raptured (no questions asked) then there is no problem but if you aren't in a spirit body it is the fake.

These other things we have discussed are interesting and give us more understanding of His Word but I don't believe they have anything to do with salvation. The rapture doctrine might. If it is as I believe, what causes the apostasy of end times, it could lead many to follow Satan, believing he is Christ. Because of that, this subject is one I try to bring up all the time in an effort to make others aware of that possibility.

The bride of Christ is removed before the week of Jacob's trouble begins (Jer.30:7), Daniel's 70th week.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jacob, changed to Israel, means all 12 tribes. It is a time of trouble for God's children as those are the ones Satan is coming after. Why would God name it Jacob's trouble if Jacob (Israel) was to be "saved out of it"? What trouble could it be to them if they weren't there? The way they are "saved out of it" is by knowing His Word. They won't fall for the deception of that time of trouble because they will know the truth. That is how they are saved. The following verse tells us who Satan is coming after and the verse we just discussed tells us that is Israel - that's why it is important to know who the tribes are. The tribe of Judah does not "have the testimony of Jesus Christ". It is speaking of Christians.

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That verse lets us know that we will be here and that we are the ones he is coming after. We must know the truth about that time. If you believe in a rapture at least be prepared if there isn't one. I don't see how you can do both as being truly prepared is to know what will happen at the end of days, as the above verse states.

What God wants is you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Yes, He is the only way to salvation. If, at the end of days, we follow anti-christ, even unknowingly, then we are no longer saved to Jesus but to Satan. That is why the rapture theory is very dangerous to believe in.

Many people think that their works can save them or keep them saved-they can't.

No, they cannot but they can cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)

It is arguable since the Southern tribes (the Jews) were exiled and were under Persian control. Those same lands that Persia controled were once Assyrian lands and thus, the Jews and Israelites were brought together again and were come to be known as Jews by the Gentiles. So this little word game that you guys play is just nonsense.

Was Judah or was Judah not one of the 12 tribes of Israel? Look, a lighter is composed of a flint, a striker, a wheel, fluid and a case. You don't call the flint the lighter. You don't call the striker the lighter. You don't call the wheel the lighter. You don't call the fluid the lighter. You don't call the case the lighter.

See?

Ah, my friend, it's pretty hard coded in the Bible that the norther kingdom (House of Israel) was captured by the Assyrians, then, after many decades, the House of Judah was captured by the Babylonians. Judah returned to Palestine. Israel did not.

It's pretty clear that after Israel was captured and removed far from Judah, they didn't see each other again. Else the Bible would have been abundantly clear about that, both being God's chosen people. Hosea is clear that that has not yet happened.

I'm afraid I don't make much logical sense out of your statement above. Please clarify.

No, there is 4th choice, they remained in the Assyrian lands and were absorbed into the local population. And that seems far likely.

That is comprehended in "being wiped out". In that case, God broke His promise. The remnants of the Assyrian people are making endless war on Judah. There is nothing is prophecy about this. On the other hand, which nations are supporting Judah?

The is plenty in prophecy about the vast numbers of Israel being reunited with Israel.

All you say is musing and supposition in support of a conclusion you personally want to believe.

Yes, there will be a rebirth of Israel, all 12 tribes as we see today. The Northern tribes are blended with the South and are known as Jews. Many from the North had gone South after the split and many likely also had returned after the Babylonian captivity. All tribes were in Israel when the Lord appeared and were known as Jews.

However, numbers defeat you. How many Jews are in the entire world of 3 billion people today. Do you deny that Jewish writers and leaders have expressed many times the numbers are diminishing? You're thinking this process would take place how far in the future?

Or will God raise the stones up as children of Abraham?

No a moonbat makes up his own argument and then argues it.

As you appear to be doing.

You have overlooked the most likely scenerio, that the 10 Tribes were absorbed into the local populations.

There are not enough of them to fulfill Hosea.

Captive tribes do not migrate anywhere without permission

They do after they defeat their captors.

The Jews had to get permission from Cyrus to do so.

Judah was not Israel. Judah's numbers were small; Israel's large.

There are only three group of people in the world, Jew, Gentile and Church.

How do you know? And, even if there were, how do you know the descendants of the Israelites are not the church of all believers? This would certainly seem more likely, wouldn't you think, since that the Israelite was the balance of God's people?

Israelites are Jews.

Repeating that doesn't make it so, especially when it has not logical or historical support.

We are all under God's judgment now.

Clearly,you are just another confused British-Israelite.

Well, I'm no label. I do see certain valid points people whom you label such make. I see some others with obvious nonsense. Are you capable of discerning jewels from rocks? Every faith, religion and believing group has both.

If a person can't discern validity when mixed with nonsense, I'm not sure I could afford him any credibility. Broad brushes are only good for painting walls.

[It is arguable since the Southern tribes (the Jews) were exiled and were under Persian control. Those same lands that Persia controled were once Assyrian lands and thus, the Jews and Israelites were brought together again and were come to be known as Jews by the Gentiles. So this little word game that you guys play is just nonsense.]

Well, since they all parts together make up a lighter, can call it a lighter when all parts come together as such.

The word 'Jew' didn't come into play until after the division.

If the word changed with usage, then the word Jew can very well now refer to all 12 tribes, since all 12 were back in the land when the Lord appeared.

Words change with usage and over time.

As it was, Jew didn't refer to only one tribe in the first place!

It refered to at least 3, Judah, Benjamin and Levi.

Over time it came to refer to others as well when they came together in Palestine.

See?

No, do you see?

Ah, my friend, it's pretty hard coded in the Bible that the norther kingdom (House of Israel) was captured by the Assyrians, then, after many decades, the House of Judah was captured by the Babylonians. Judah returned to Palestine. Israel did not.

Well, you are pretty blind to the historical facts.

Members of those same tribes were in the South when the Southern Kingdom fell.

So all members of the 12 tribes were present in the Palestine when Ezra came back.

The 'lost' house of Israel was present in Palestine when Christ was present and Peter refers to them crucifing their Messiah.

So, the fact is, those tribes are in Palestine at the time of Christ and are known as Jews as is Judah and Benajamin.

It's pretty clear that after Israel was captured and removed far from Judah, they didn't see each other again. Else the Bible would have been abundantly clear about that, both being God's chosen people. Hosea is clear that that has not yet happened.

The Two Kingdoms were separated and never reunited as a Kingdom.

But the individual members from each tribe did intermingle and return together as single people in Palestine, not individual tribes.

So what is clear is that you have a very confused notion of both Biblical history and prophecy.

[ I'm afraid I don't make much logical sense out of your statement above. Please clarify. No, there is 4th choice, they remained in the Assyrian lands and were absorbed into the local population. And that seems far likely. ]

No, God would not violated His promise if the people from each tribe were still represented.

And that is the case today, all 12 tribes are in existance as Jews.

We know that because they were called the house of Israel, which is not the house of Judah.

No tribes migrated anywhere except back to Palestine, where they were dispersed again but are be reunited again, the second time (Isa.11:11), and will not be dispersed again (Amos.9:15)

[ The is plenty in prophecy about the vast numbers of Israel being reunited with Israel. ]

All you say is musing and supposition in support of a conclusion you personally want to believe.

No, I am speaking what the Bible actually teaches, not myths and legends that fabricate history.

[ Yes, there will be a rebirth of Israel, all 12 tribes as we see today. The Northern tribes are blended with the South and are known as Jews. Many from the North had gone South after the split and many likely also had returned after the Babylonian captivity. All tribes were in Israel when the Lord appeared and were known as Jews. ]

Numbers defeat me?

After having 6 million wiped out 60 years ago, they have their own booming nation of millions.

What the holocaust did was galvanize the Jew/Israelite to become more focused in his identity and that is why Jews go to Israel so as not be absorbed into the Gentile world.

They will be there when Christ returns for them (Zech.12:10)

Or will God raise the stones up as children of Abraham?

Doesn't have to, there are millions of Jews in the world and God dosen't have to have pretend Israelites to make up the numbers.

[ No a moonbat makes up his own argument and then argues it. ]

As you appear to be doing.

No, Biblical history shows that all 12 tribes were indeed back in the land at the time of Christ.

So the myth of the Lost Tribes is just that, a myth.

All Jews are Israelites and all Israelites are Jews.

When the Millennial Kingdom begins, then each tribe will be known and get its inheritance, since a Kingdom will come back into existance and not just a nation.

[ You have overlooked the most likely scenerio, that the 10 Tribes were absorbed into the local populations. ]

There are not enough of them to fulfill Hosea.

Ofcourse there are.

All that the tribes started with in Egypt was 75.

The tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out once.

All God needs to keep his promise is a man and woman from each tribe.

You guys keep thinking you know how God has to operate and then build an entire theology around it.

Who would have predicted that God would come into the world in a manger?

Stop trying to put God into a box.

The facts do not support your theory.

And you are making up a theory to support your own opinions on what God can and cannot do.

[ Captive tribes do not migrate anywhere without permission ]

They do after they defeat their captors.

The 10 nations never defeated anyone.

What pseudo-history are you now imagining?

The Babyonians defeated the Assryians and the Persians defeated them.

Thus, all 12 tribes came under one single empire.

[ The Jews had to get permission from Cyrus to do so. ]

Judah was not Israel. Judah's numbers were small; Israel's large.

You do not know how large Israel's numbers were by the time the Assyrians came in.

The Syrians were 'smiting' them long before they were deported by the Assyrians (2Ki.10) at one time the entire Israelite army was down to 10,000 men and a few chariots (2Ki.13:7).

Not exactly a massive army representing a large population.

Once again, you are dealing with conjecture and not fact.

[ There are only three group of people in the world, Jew, Gentile and Church. ]

How do you know? And, even if there were, how do you know the descendants of the Israelites are not the church of all believers? This would certainly seem more likely, wouldn't you think, since that the Israelite was the balance of God's people?

I know because the Bible tells us so.

Paul doesn't address a 4th group known as 'Israelites'.

All those from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are considered Hebrews, Israelites and Jews as interchangable terms.

Anyone who personally receives Christ as their personal saviour, either Jew or Gentile becomes a Christian and is no longer considered a Jew or Gentile by God, but is considered the Bride of Christ, Christ's very body (Gal.3:28,Eph.5:30).

[ Israelites are Jews. ]

Repeating that doesn't make it so, especially when it has not logical or historical support.

And continuing to deny it doesn't change the fact that all Israelites are Jews and vice a versa.

We are all under God's judgment now.

God's judgement for the Jew hasn't reached it climax, but it will during the Tribulation, at the end of Daniel's 70th week.

[ Clearly,you are just another confused British-Israelite. ]

, Well, I'm no label. I do see certain valid points people whom you label such make. I see some others with obvious nonsense. Are you capable of discerning jewels from rocks? Every faith, religion and believing group has both.

I am capable of seeing that you accept the essential point of their view, that Israelites are not Jews, based on this idiotic notion that the language cannot change over time and usage.

If a person can't discern validity when mixed with nonsense, I'm not sure I could afford him any credibility. Broad brushes are only good for painting walls.

But if one accepts the essentials of a theology, they must be considered as believing that theology.

Not all Communists believe in the same details on how communism must work, but they agree on the essentials on of it.

If you believe that 10 tribes somehow migrated and are now somewhere else, and are not Jews, you are a British-Israelite, no matter what other points you disagee with those who accept that essential point.

[For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king and without a prince....afterward shall the children of Israel return and seek the Lord their God and David their king and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days (Hos.3:4-5)]

What is saying is that the Israelites will not have any kingdom until the Lord returns.

So the notion that any royal families came from them and established England is a myth.

[ In 1Cor.10:32, Paul says give no offense to three different groups of people, Jews, Gentiles and Church....Had a 4th existed known as Israelites, he would have included them as well. ]

The Church never refers to Israel, it refers to those from both Jew and Gentile.

Moreover, called out ones never refers to the Israelites per se.

It is either the entire nation of Israel (Acts.7).

In Acts.18:22, it is referring a Gentile local church.

So show me where Israel is ever called 'ekklessia'(church).

They are never called that as a group.

Are you saying that every Israelite is a member of the Church, and thus saved?

Paul was very clear on those who he was referring to, Jew, Gentiles and Church (body of Christ-Gal.3:28), not local churches, and the Jew refers to everyone in the line of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob and 12 tribes.

So...Paul does mention the Israelites along with the Jews and Gentiles - they are the church.

No, for your theory to be true, all Israelites would have to be the church,and the term Israelite and church would be synonymous, which you know they aren't.

[ Until then, the Jew is under the curse of Deut.28, being dispersed and dispised. ]

Verse 15 tells us that being cursed will happen "if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day: that all these curses shall come upon thee and overtake thee: It seems all of God's children didn't follow His commandments and statutes, and many continue that today. Some in the world wonder why they are cursed. They should study that verse for the answer. Please note vs.64, where it states: And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And He did.

Yes, He did, all 12 tribes were scattered, all 12 tribes were reunited as a nation and all 12 tribes were scattered again in 70 AD again.

All 12 tribes have again reunited as a nation known as Jews.

That verse answers your question, "Well, if you can't show that the tribes had migrated then the view is built on a very shaky foundation!. God scattered them.

Yes, God did scatter them and reunited them again as a vassel state in Israel.

Both Houses were present when the Lord was born and thus, they were all known as Jews.

[ As for the rapture, there will be one (1Thess.4:16) ]

That's correct, we don't have to worry about the anti-Christ.

Read the Gospels and it is the Jews that Christ is warning, not the Church.

You will note also that a Temple will be built that will house the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel.

Those who follow the Anti-Christ will be awed by the signs and wonders he does and his promise of peace.

That will be the deception, not the view of the rapture.

[ The bride of Christ is removed before the week of Jacob's trouble begins (Jer.30:7), Daniel's 70th week. Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. ]

No, Jacob always refers to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not the Church.

Israel is saved from destruction by the appearance of Christ to save them (Zech.12:10)

Israel is not the church.

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That verse lets us know that we will be here and that we are the ones he is coming after. We must know the truth about that time. If you believe in a rapture at least be prepared if there isn't one. I don't see how you can do both as being truly prepared is to know what will happen at the end of days, as the above verse states.

Israel is not the Church.

Israel is from the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Rom.9:4-5)

[ What God wants is you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. ]

No what is dangerous is thinking that you are Israelites and are not.

Israelites are Jews and will be reunited as individual tribes in the Millennial Kingdom.

The Church does not get any physical inheritance in the Kingdom, but reigns with Christ if we have suffered with Him (2Tim.2:11)

The Church is not Israel.

[ Many people think that their works can save them or keep them saved-they can't. ]

No, they cannot but they can cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)

Works never cover any sins!

That passage states that if one converts a sinner it shall save his soul from hell and hide a multitude of sins.

There is no works mentioned in that passage!

Peter states that it is charity that covers the multitude of sins, not works (1Pe.4:8).

[God did not break any promise with Israel.]

If He wiped them out, He certainly did.

No one is saying that the Israelites were wiped out.

We know that the members of the 'house of Israel' was present in Israel when Christ appeared.

It is you that is setting up a straw man by insisting that if the 10 tribes are not known as such they must have been wiped out.

The members of those tribes are still present and are known as Jews.

They will find out their tribe in the Millennial reign when the inheritance is handed out.

[ They are dispersed now but will be regathered and reunited into a Millennial Kingdom under the Lord Jesus Christ. ]

I agree. But "dispersed" may also mean composed of, which is the only way the numbers required can be there.

What required numbers?

God doesn't require numbers to get His Kingdom going.

There will be very few people left after the Tribulation but God will re-inhabit the earth very quickly.

You underestimate the power of God.

The Jews will have enough from each tribe to reestablish the kingdom and they will repopulate very quickly.

During the Millennial there will be perfect environment and no infant deaths.

[ Today all Israelites are Jews and all Jews are Israelites. ]

You keep saying that, but with no evidence historical or logical. I can only come tot he conclusion that this is what you want to believe.

And I can only come to the conclusion that you are locked into circular reasoning based on false assumptions.

You have no evidence of any Israelite migration anywhere.

We know all 12 tribes were in Israel during Christ's birth and death.

They are in that blood line (Abraham, Issac, Jacob) and today consider themselves as Jews, Israelites and Hebrews, as did Paul

Your logic is as flawed as your history and Bible knowledge.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia 4. Last Period and Fall of the Empire:

His son Esar-haddon, who succeeded him (681-669 BC) after his murder by two other sons on the 20th Tebet (compare 2Ki 19:37), was as distinguished a general and administrator as his father had been the reverse. For his history see ESARHADDON .

Under him the Second Empire reached the acme of its power and prosperity. Babylon was rebuilt and made the second capital of the empire, Palestine became an obedient province, and Egypt was conquered (674 and 671 BC), while an invasion of the Cimmerians (Gomer) was repelled, and campaigns were made into the heart of both Media and Arabia. Esar-haddon died while on his way to repress a revolt in Egypt, and his son Assur-bani-pal succeeded him in the empire (669-626 BC), while another son Samas-sum-ukin was appointed viceroy of Babylonia.

Assur-bani-pal was a munificent patron of learning, and the library of Nineveh owed most of its treasures to him, but extravagant luxury had now invaded the court, and the king conducted his wars through his' generals, while he himself remained at home. The great palace at Kouyunjik (Nineveh) was built by him. Egypt demanded his first attention.

Tirhakah the Ethiopian who had headed its revolt was driven back to his own country, and for a time there was peace. Then under Tandamane, Tirhakah's successor, Egypt revolted again. This time the Assyrian punishment was merciless. Thebes--"No-amon" (Na 3:8)--was destroyed, its booty carried away and two obelisks transported to Nineveh as trophies of victory. Meanwhile Tyre, which had rebelled, was forced to sue for peace, and ambassadors arrived from Gyges of Lydia asking for help against the Cimmerians. Elam still remained independent and endeavored to stir up disaffection in Babylonia.

Against his will, therefore, Assur-bani-pal was obliged to interfere in the internal affairs of that country, with the result that the Elamites were finally overthrown in a battle on the Eulaeus beneath the walls of Susa, and the conquered land divided between two vassal kings.

Then suddenly a revolt broke out throughout the greater part of the Assyrian empire, headed by Assur-bani-pal's brother, the viceroy of Babylonia. For a time the issue was doubtful. Egypt recovered its independence under Psammetichus, the founder of the XXVIth Dynasty (660 BC) who had received help from Lydia, but Babylonia was reconquered and Babylon after a long siege was starved out, Samas-sum-ukin burning himself in the ruins of his palace. Elam remained to be dealt with, and an Assyrian army made its way to Susa, which was leveled to the ground, the shrines of its gods profaned and the bones of its ancient kings torn from their graves.

Then came the turn of northern Arabia, where the rebel sheikhs were compelled to submit. But the struggle had exhausted Assyria; its exchequer was empty, and its fighting population killed. When the Cimmerians descended upon the empire shortly afterward, it was no longer in a condition to resist them. Under Assur-etil-ilani, the son and successor of Assur-bani-pal, Calah was taken and sacked, and two reigns later, Sin-sar-iskun, the last king of Assyria, fell fighting against the Scythians (606 BC). Nineveh was utterly destroyed, never again to be inhabited, and northern Babylonia passed into the hands of Nabopolassar, the viceroy of Babylon, who had joined the northern invaders.(emphasis added) Assur, the old capital of the country, was still standing in the age of Cyrus, but it had become a small provincial town; as for Nineveh and Calah, their very sites were forgotten.

No wonder you are so confused!

You don't even know basic history!

We have reached an impasse about the tribes issue.

Read the Gospels and it is the Jews that Christ is warning, not the Church.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He warns everyone, all the tribes of the earth. Also, remember Rev.12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Jewish people do not have the testimony of Jesus. This warning is to the Christians - he is coming after us.

You will note also that a Temple will be built that will house the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel.

I believe it is a "Holy Place" that is already there. Satan (the abomination of desolation) will stand in the holy place (Dome of the Rock) pretending to be Christ.

Those who follow the Anti-Christ will be awed by the signs and wonders he does and his promise of peace.....That will be the deception, not the view of the rapture.

Just remember, there are two tribulations and you must wait for the true Christ:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days......... 30......And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He comes 2nd., at the 7th trump, after Satan. Satan comes at the 6th trump, 6th vial, 6th seal = 666.

Israel is from the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Rom.9:4-5)

But there is no dispute with that. All of Israel, all 12 tribes are the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Ping - No, they cannot but they can cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)
FTD - Works never cover any sins!....That passage states that if one converts a sinner it shall save his soul from hell and hide a multitude of sins.....There is no works mentioned in that passage!....Peter states that it is charity that covers the multitude of sins, not works (1Pe.4:8).

Both scriptures state that a multitude of sins are covered - charity and converting a sinner. Aren't both considered work? Isn't that the work Father wants us to do?

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