Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
Well, I’ve read it twice now. What do you, in your theology, think the first mover is?
People say that, but I simply don’t believe it. I received an answer to my sincere prayer concerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The answer was the opposite of what I expected. I did not want the Book of Mormon to be true. I did not believe the story at all, thinking it was a fanciful fable. And yet I followed Christ’s admonition that if we ask the Father in his name we will receive.
When I prayed in all sincerity concerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, I received the shock of my life when I got an actual response in the affirmative. I had no doubt God answered my prayer. I then resolved to act upon the revelation and joined the church despite overwhelming opposition by my family and the consequences of my conversion (kicked out of the house and my senior year in my Catholic high school).
From that moment on, I knew three things, God is real, Jesus really is the Son of God, and the Book of Mormon was genuine Scripture. Nothing has been able to shake me from these convictions because I knew God answered my prayer.
For ANYONE to tell me they prayed to God and received an opposite answer automatically tells me that they are LYING. Why? Because if that was the case, God is then subjective and gives different answers to different people.
I’m sorry, I simply do not believe anyone who says God told him otherwise. Would you believe someone who tells you they prayed to God and received an answer telling them Jesus is NOT the Son of God? I know he is because of my answered prayer - the same God told that truth to me. Should I then disbelieve God?
No, I’m immovable on this issue - I know what happened to me. I know God is real, I know Jesus is his Son, and I know the Book of Mormon is genuine Scripture. The same revelation told me these things simultaneously.
If God allowed me to be deceived by Satan, as many anti-Mormons alleged, why then would he tell me God is real and Jesus is his Son? If I somehow tricked myself into believing a falsity, why am I so certain that I am not fearful when standing before God and accusing him of lying to me when I came to him in sincere prayer? I’ll gladly go to hell than serve such a deceitful God.
It’s now been more than 22 years since that summer day and my spiritual testimony has been reinforced by Scriptures and logic, giving me an unbreakable faith of both spiritual and intellectual witnesses of the authenticity of Mormonism. Where can I find something better? Nowhere!
If you did, you would know the answer: there is NO First Cause.
There is no static —> dynamic Unmoved Mover. Rather, it is a beginningless chain of dynamic causes (dynamic —> dynamic).
In one fell swoop, the Gordian Knot that has bedeviled theistic philosophers is cut, and atheism’s only positive argument is shattered. Theists can finally go on the offensive against atheism since the traditional explanation that was derived from Aristotle has proven woefully inadequate since it contains two fatal logical flaws.
I noticed all you do is make sweeping allegations without the courtesy of backing them up. Furthermore, you create standards that you assume has no biblical precedent. Might I suggest you actually take the time to see what I wrote before the risk of getting hoisted on your own petard?
Much nicer all around and less messy ;^)
And what of the Christians that have been touched by the Holy Spirit and led to Christ and the Church? You deny Satan or self-delusion can touch you but believe the Christian church to be in apostasy and false. You know that cults exist and that people give their testimony for cults all the time, yet you deny the possability for yourself.
Anyway, do Mormons believe there is no first creator, that existence is eternal, are they athiestic in that sense and no God created existence itself, but existence itself created a being superior to us that you call God through some sort of unexplained accident like a darwinism for Gods? Or are they agnostic and say they don’t know what created existence? Basically, is it atheism or agnosticism on the matter of creation itself?
We crossed paths in our post. As I understand your answer there was no creator (for sure in Mormon theology), existence always is and has been, and existence itself created God rather than the other way around. Atheism rather than agnosticism.
Yes, and all you do is post links to a specious site written by a man you claim is you, full of unfounded and spurious claims.
How is that petard of yours feeling about now?
Foundational:
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
>> Still, I’ll concede there may be cases where this
>> is not the case since it certainly is plausible;
>> but I personally have never encountered them.
Well now you have in meeting me on this thread and I know dozens of people in the same boat as me. I left simply because I came to discover that the church isn't true and that the doctrines are manmade, period. And after I came to this unfortunate conclusion it took me 2 years of testing this conclusion very thoroughly to finally get up the courage to walk away. It wasn't because I was offended. It wasn't because of the LDS commandments. It wasn't because I never had a testimony. It wasn't because I was stubbornly clinging to some ANTI belief. I gave the church every benefit of doubt; and still will do so to this day.
Only Mormonism’s multiversal cosmology resolves the problem of a theistic-based reality.
Well of COURSE!!
You use the BoM and other utterances of your leaders to 'resolve' these issues.
A better case of circular logic I can't find.
This is PROOF??
Long ago, some othber fellow had a similar attitude:
Romans 11:1-5
1. I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:
3. "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ?
4. And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
5. So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
And you will be told that it only looks that way from YOUR perspective.
In Mormonism that only applies for matters that make sense within the box of Mormonism thinking. Anything else gets "put on the shelf" to never be resolved honestly. For example, what ever happened to the rock solid teaching that some of my cousins whose mom is an Native American are Lamanites? These cousins were in the Lamanite Generation group at BYU and proud of their heritage of being descendants of Father Lehi. Now the experts at FARMS say this isn't so. The Angel Moroni must have been one very clueless resurrected being. Its amazing how Mormon scholars put more faith in the theories of non-Mormon scientists than they do in the words of a supposed resurrected angel of the Lord who grew up in the Nephite civilization and was a prophet amongst them before he buried up those plates and appeared to Joseph Smith 1400 years later. Just look at the words of Joseph Smith and early Mormon leaders on the origins of the Native Americans.
Hmmmmmmmm. I'm amazed by the ignorance or hardheartedness that is so often found in Mormonism apologists.
Didn't you get the memo?
What about them? For someone who is so hostile towards Mormonism, you don’t seem to realize the faith has a tiered eschatology that is a lot more charitable and humane than others who condemn the majority of humanity to endless torture in hell. Anyone who professes faith in Christ and lives in accordance with his wishes has salvation - he or she will go to heaven. However, those who want to receive the fullness of God’s blessings, which confers divine sonship by Grace (i.e., exaltation, becoming Gods), will need to join his church, receive all the necessary ordinances, and maintain faithfulness until the end. These select few move on to the next stage of evolution so to speak.
Everyone will have a chance to be exalted. There are untold millions of the righteous who will refuse, and prefer to stay where they are, enjoying companionship with Christ in heaven (what we call the Terrestial Kingdom). Whatever you consider heaven to be - the most wonderful place imaginable - that’s the Terrestrial Kingdom. A place of eternal bliss.
The Celestial Kingdom is higher and different - it is also a place of eternal bliss but it is a place that allows eternal progression. Those eligible to be exalted develop, grow, and metamorphoses into replicas of the exalted Christ. They receive both the blessings of divinity as well as the responsibility that goes with it. To say nothing about the pain of seeing one’s spirit children rebel and suffer as well as the fecund joy when they succeed and are happy themselves.
Lookit, if you don’t want to be exalted, who’s forcing you? You don’t have to join the Mormon church in order to be saved and go to heaven. Stay where you are, have faith in Christ and live righteously. You will be judged and be blessed with eternal bliss in heaven. Why get upset just because we call this heaven the Terrestrial Kingdom and believe in the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation?
As for those who refuse to accept Christ but live righteously, they will also go to a heaven, but the Telestial Kingdom, a lower heaven where they will not associate with Christ. Frankly, I don’t see what the big deal is if they go to a heaven and enjoy eternal bliss - if they rejected Christ when they had a chance; why would they want to live with him for all eternity? At least we don’t condemn the righteous unbeliever to unending torture in hell.
Read what I wrote about the apostasy - it simply means loss of genuine authority. It doesn’t mean those belonging to apostate churches are all evil and will be punished for all eternity.
Lastly, Mormonism believes God created this entire universe but he himself originated from an ancestral universe, which originated from an earlier universe, ad infinitum. The universes and “Gods” (all-good entities capable of manipulating reality and create universes according to their desires) stretch back into infinity. IOW, it’s an infinitely long chain without beginning and without end.
Please read what I wrote on the subject for further clarification http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id76.htm
Humble you both (I have at times seen DU show some humility, although not often!) are not...
Edward, I can't decide whether I should laugh or line up to kiss the hem of your robe! The kind of arrogance shown in your posts is a GREAT advertisment for the LDS.
Ah, my dear Elsie, I see you’re still obsessing about Mormonism after all these years.
Your brilliance still shines through - providing references from Mormon sources is “circular logic”? Hmmm, non sequitur. Do you know what a circular logic fallacy is? Here, let me show you so you won’t display your great intellect on this forum:
A is true because of B
B is true because of A
Get it? It is not:
A is true because of B
B is true because of C
Ah Elsie, thanks for your contributions to meaningful discourse.
Sure sounds like another mindless, irrational fanatic with nothing better to do.
New grist for the list...err...mill.
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