Our Mormon Brothers?

Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

[Gamecock]

The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:

The First Vision

Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:

That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)

And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,

Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)

How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).

What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.

While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)

————————————————-

(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.

(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:

The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.

(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:

This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).

(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

• Celestial kingdom—Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ reside in the celestial kingdom. If you live according to the gospel of Jesus Christ and are cleansed from sin by the Atonement, you will receive a place in this, the highest kingdom, where you will live in God's presence and know complete joy.

• Terrestrial kingdom—People who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but who live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom.

• Telestial kingdom—Those who continue in their sins and do not repent until after they have died, will eventually receive a place in the telestial kingdom.

A Christian response to the "third heaven" Paul speaks of is as follows, which is careful not to exceed what the text of Scripture and the Holy Spirit tell us. Unlike the LDS description which plucks its florid definition out of thin air...

Question

In 2 Corinthians 12:2 this man, maybe Paul, is caught up to the third heaven. What happened to cause him to be caught up to the third heaven and what is the third heaven?

Answer (by R. McLaughlin)

The meaning of "third heaven" is not entirely clear. Rabbinical sources mention seven heavens, and Paul may have been speaking from this perspective -- perhaps indicating that he had received an incredible revelation, though not the highest.  By some accounts, "third" is a temporal referent, the "third heaven" being the one that exists right now, the abode of departed believers.

The cause of this "catching up" was God himself, the giver of revelation. The experience is quite similar to a number of Old Testament prophetic experiences (e.g. Isa. 6). God occasionally gave his prophets and apostles (compare John's Revelation) visions of heaven itself. Also, the Old Testament tabernacle and temple were places where heaven and earth intersected. To be in either of these was to be simultaneously in the heavenly court of God, as in Isaiah 6.

In any event, since Paul's point is the defense of his own apostleship, we can assume that the revelation surpassed anything that the false apostles (2 Cor. 11:13) claimed for themselves. It was an incredible revelation of the heavenly realm, given directly to Paul (in my opinion Paul was speaking of himself) by God, and given especially for Paul himself (at least in content).

I believe that the Father passed through mortal life in the same way that the Son did.

Where is the Scripture for that belief which Christians would label as outright heresy?

If you believe God was once a man like you and me, you must agree with your churches teaching of the following, right?

"God himself, the Father of us all was once a man like us." (History of the Church, Vol 6, Joseph Smith p 305).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet, J. F. Smith p 345).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).

Where is the Scripture to support any of this peculiar, heretical notion which exalts man at the expense of the Triune God?

[restornu]

Mormons adhere to a lie that THE Holy Spirit was lost to humankind after the last Apostle who saw Jesus in person died. They have chosen to believe this lie (they have exercised their free will to believe this lie) and in so doing have closed the door to their spirit so the very Holy Spirit they have been lied to about can not indwell them. They insist upon our being deceived by looking upon their good works. when one offers the good works of Buddhists and Ba'hais, Mormons pooh pooh this.

The entire of Mormonism rests upon the lie that God's Holy Spirit was no longer indwelling humankind once the last Apostle died, and God needed a Joseph Smith to restore the Holy Spirit to the human spirit. Islam began under similar libelous assertions by another demon inspired 'man of the flesh', albeit that demon inspired false religion sees suicide murder as 'good works'. If the flase teaching of Mormonism causes men's souls to perish eternally, is it not just as deadly, spiritually, as Islam?

What a particular tale from MHGinTN.

The Holy Ghost was always upon earth just not as in the form of a Constance companion.

BIBLE DICTIONARY

Holy Ghost

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). The Holy Ghost is manifested in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10: 17-22; Moses 6: 51-68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8: 12-25 and Moroni 2: 1-3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3: 11; 2 Ne. 31: 17; D&C 19: 31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7: 39; John 16: 7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (cf. Matt. 16: 16-17; 1 Cor. 12: 3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth into the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33: 1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35: 19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1: 21).

Other names that sometimes refer to the Holy Ghost are Holy Spirit, Spirit of god, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.

[greyfoxx39]

Congratulations on an excellent post.

1. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, nothing else matters.

2. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15) The same idea is expressed frequently in the Bible: those who love God keep his commandments (Ex. 20:6; Deut. 5:10, 7:9, 19:9; Josh. 22:5; Dan. 9:4; John 15:10; 1 John 5:2, 3). We believe that those commandments include the making of covenants, such as those involved in the ordinances of baptism, the endowment, and eternal marriage.

3. Not everyone has the same opportunity in life to hear the gospel and accept the covenants. Because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:24), he has provided a way that all may receive the gospel and the ordinances. Hence we have the temples and proxy ordinances.

Why then, must one "pass the judgement of Joseph Smith to enter the Celestial kingdom?"

The Apostle Paul wrote that "the saints shall judge the world" and that they would "judge angels" (1 Cor. 6:2, 3) That being the case in Paul's day, I see nothing strange in the idea that Joseph Smith, through whom the ancient Church was restored, will judge those of the latter days.

However, he will do so only under the direction of Jesus Christ.

"Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ", really means "Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is interpreted by the LDS church, does it not?"

Since I believe that the LDS Church understands the Gospel as well as anyone, I have no problem recommending our interpretation of it.

However, I think perhaps you may be missing an important point. Salvation is not merely a matter of interpreting the gospel, but living it. We will be judged not just by what we know but by how well we lived according to what we know. Those whose interpretation is imperfect may nevertheless be blessed by living the best they know how. As Jesus said, "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48).

I believe that God loves all mankind as his children. He desires all to be saved. He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.

This post is much more indicative of mormon beliefs that your orginal post #291 that left out major points.

I question this statement from that post: I see nothing in the scriptures about ruling planets or spirit children. That is speculation. Unfortunately, a lot of folklore has been built on speculation

Through my own personal experience, I know that it is taught that there are millions of spirit children waiting for earthly bodies, hence the practice of large LDS families. Also, my experience is that it is much more than "speculation" that "as man is God once was, as God is man may become" (even though this is denied after many years of teaching it), but is a firm belief by many mormons. Thanks.

[MHGinTN]

Resty, I can understand your confusion, you post a dictionary offering that doesn’t even address the notion of my post which you choose to ignore. Your false religion rests upon a gross lie due to the founder having zero understanding of what THE CHURCH is and how THE HOLY SPIRIT establishes IT in the believing heart and builds the 'body' of Christ's Bride. Don’t keep promoting Mormonism foolishness with your oblique, 'missing the target' repetitions colored up with nice font tones and larger than standard font size ... it is like sounding brass, Resty, just noise not symphony.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:10-14

[Dr. Eckleburg]

He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.

So there is something God cannot do?

[restornu]

I believe that the Father passed through mortal life in the same way that the Son did.

Where is the Scripture for that belief which Christians would label as outright heresy?

If you believe God was once a man like you and me, you must agree with your churches teaching of the following, right?

What I sumized, suspect or my common sense tells me or if I connect the dots don't make it scripture or doctrine nor would it be heresy!

Even if you refuse to see or take the word of Jesus he does indicate-

1- Jesus could see his Heavenly Father
2- Jesus was able to see the things his Father taught him.
3- Jesus testified to these things and re enforces what he is trying to tell the mortal man
4- It was vital to Jesus that he do the will of his Father in heaven and give his Father all the glorY.
5- Jesus also insisted that other recognized his Father
6- Jesus keeps stressing the point His Father in Heaven
sent Jesus his only begotton Son to earht.

John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

***

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

[greyfoxx39]

He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.
So there is something God cannot do?

He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.

I believe this caveat to mean that once the soul (after death) has the choice to accept or reject the posthumous baptism, confirmation into the LDS church and temple ordinances performed by proxy in its name, if the soul then rejects these acts, the soul will not be allowed into the Celestial kingdom, but must remain in the lower kingdom.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ahhh...more fiction.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Not one word of those Scriptures points to God having been once a man.

It's just more of Joe Smith's demented ego.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said...

...Ye shall be as gods." (Genesis 3:1,5)

[Logophile]

Congratulations on an excellent post.

Thanks.

Through my own personal experience, I know that it is taught that there are millions of spirit children waiting for earthly bodies, hence the practice of large LDS families. Also, my experience is that it is much more than "speculation" that "as man is God once was, as God is man may become" (even though this is denied after many years of teaching it), but is a firm belief by many mormons. Thanks.

Perhaps I was not clear. What I labeled as speculation in my previous post was the idea that men will rule their own planets. Also speculative are most statements about the birth of spirit children that one hears from time to time.

That said, Mormons generally believe it likely that many spirits, children of our Heavenly Father, are still awaiting their opportunity to come to earth. Whether there be millions, I could not say.

You allude to Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet, "As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be." It is still taught in the Church. And as you note, it is firmly believed by many of us.

[restornu]

Did not you say that the LDS said that after the apostles were gone the Holy Ghost no longer was on earth is this not what you think the LDS believe?

May I remind you before I ever learn about the Church I received a witness by the Power of the Holy Ghost before I received more instructions from the Lord about his Church!

I had faith that the Lord Church had to be somewhere on earth the Bible testified to in in Eph 4

I was not buying what the misister were selling! They are the ones who would deny revelation saying the heavens are closed, for goodness sakes the ignorance like to tout Rev 22:18-19

NO Tradition of Men Church who Creed orginated in 325 AD represent the Lord Church on earth, (it was a good waiting station or gathering place until the Lord's restored his Church on earth) but it is not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Had the Tradition of Men version been the answer I would have not thrist for more and went on a quest for 38 years!

I have ears to hear and eyes to see, I know my master voice!

I do not berate anyof you for where you are at in your understanding of your belief, but I think it is reckless of you folks to accuse the LDS of heresy

[restornu]

Did not Jesus say his father showed him all things and did not Jesus say he saw his father?

Jesus and his father are two seperate beings.

The Heavenly Father was not a Ghost there is only one Ghost in the Godhead, the Holy Ghost!

[Logophile]

Where is the Scripture for that belief which Christians would label as outright heresy?

What belief is there that some Christian somewhere has not labeled a heresy?

Although this has been fun, when one party to the conversation is reduced to making accusations of heresy, there is little reason to continue. Good day to you.

[1000 silverlings]

Where is the Scripture to support any of this peculiar, heretical notion which exalts man at the expense of the Triune God?

Worse, it contradicts scripture, proving itself false

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[restornu]

Would you kindly stop picking on my disablities!

First of all I don’t expect you to understand those who are different than you.

I am dyslexic and the colors help me to focus and I just found out all my eye trouble I am having besides dry eyes, my lazy eye has a cataract!

When I have to concentrate I need to use extra tools!

[MHGinTN]

Dear one, I’m not picking on your disabilities, but your Mormonism victimhood mentality whispers to you that I am.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

To assert that God was once a human being is about as heretical as any notion uttered by man. Christians the world over reel at the arrogance and blasphemy of such a lie. It is profoundly, explicitly, dangerously anti-Scriptural.

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:36-37

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“NO Tradition of Men Church who Creed orginated in 325 AD represent the Lord Church on earth...”

... only those originating in 1830 AD! 1,505 years later!

[DelphiUser]

Looks like your “no” is really a “yes”. Why deny it? My Mormon friends readily admit it when I’ve asked.

You asked a doctrinal questions and Got a doctrinal answer, you did not ask what I believe, I believe he was, but that is something that is not "Doctrine" of the church because the prophet and General authorities of the the church have not come out and said it was "Doctrine" we do have a strict rules about how something becomes doctrine.

IF you would like to talk about my personal beliefs, then i would be happy to oblige as long as you admit that I am the ultimate arbiter of what I believe. There are far to many on this forum who would tell you what I belive for me when in reality they cannot know.

These confessors of another's beliefs also commonly will then argue with me about what I believe, and or try to seer the conversation to their pet stumbling block, so if you want to go there, be prepared for lots of interference from third parties who do not want you to know what I believe for fear you will pray about it and receive a revelation that it is true. it is much safer for them to stick with Mormonism can be true because of X when they do that they are safe, no need to change, for many believe that God authorizes sin by requiring only faith not obedience to his commands.

Anyway, yes, I personally believe that at some point in the eternities God was once a Man living on a world similar to ours.

BTW how much do you know about temporal mechanics for we will undoubtable get there. Let me give you an "Exercise" to think about...

IF something is not bound by time and at some point it comes into existence, is there ever a point in time at which it cannot be said to exist? (The correct answer is no.)

Even if God "Became God" some when, as soon as he exists outside of time, he has always been God.

There will undoubtably be many who will call me all sorts of things for this example, but it is an accurate exercise in temporal reasoning which is why God would explain things to the simple minded peasants as I am from Everlasting unto Everlasting, From all eternity to all eternity and so forth.