Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
Who?
Jesus was physically born of a woman, but He was always one with His Father.
Answer the quesrion; Does Mormonism theology claim that Godwas once a man?
Myself I have watched the metamorphous unfold as each generation brings in the challenge of that generation and how the hand of the Lord edits, builds and magnified his glory upon the children who are malleable. As in the story if the potters clay!
That is why we are taught to listen to the living prophets we have the foundation that Joseph and Brigham and other prophets have received.
But the Living prophets and those who are diligent in their scriptures studies receive continually clarification of the Nature of the Godhead and instuction in how to do the will of the Heavenly Father.
What I mean by this is the Sermon on the Mound aka Beatitudes is the Spiritual guide in the development of the child of God to shed the natural man.
1-When it comes to Jews and Gentiles I think its safe to say that the Mormon church and their apologists definitely have a double standard in their brand of modern day mysticism beliefs.Sorry I have no clue what you are trying to say!
2-First, we have Joseph Smith declaring through revelation that Zion (location of the New Jerusalem where Jesus will reign for 1000 years) is to be built in Jackson County, Missouri; and he declares a specific border between the lands of US white settlers and American Indians to be the line separating Jew and Gentile with the Indians (called Lamanites) being referred to as Jews.
Those who left the Church in the 80's and 90's or did not pay attention the Church has received a more encompassing understanding on the topic of Zion and Zion is very much covering the whole face of the Earth and will continue to build up the Lord Kingdom until the return of Jesus Christ.
There are two Jerusalem the one in Israel and the New Jerusalem in America both will play a major roll in the return of the Lord.
See http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/57/4b in Latter-day scriptures for more on this. Next, we have sophisticated scientific research in the 20th century and the present plugging holes into the Mormon scriptural claims about the American Indians' ancestry.
These thing have already been done about getting the Land that is needed.
Finally, the apologists and defenders of Mormonism give more weight to the teachings of anti-Mormon and other non-Mormon scientists on the origins of the American Indians than they do the words of Mormon prophets Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson and even Gordon B. Hinckley and other present-day Mormon apostles.
Go read what the so-called apologists/scholars have to say at FARMS (now called the Maxwell Institute). Its amazing how none of them think that the Book of Mormon is a record of the principal ancestors of the American Indians. And their scriptures introduction says, "they [Book of Mormon people] are the principal ancestors of the American Indians"(see http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction).
There is something you are trying to say but it has not reach the printed page!
Looks like your “no” is really a “yes”. Why deny it? My mormon friends readily admit it when I’ve asked.
Answer the quesrion; Does Mormonism theology claim that Godwas once a man?
Yes the Son of God, Jesus Christ was always one with the Heavenly Father, but now Jesus is in a physical form and when resurrected he was also in a form of man but now has a Celestial body(body parts) of Flesh and Bone which are eternal and the LDS believe just like Heavenly Father has an eternal Body.
Man is also to be one with God.
In John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. ,br> 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Jesus talks about SEEING his father, that his father SHEWETH him all things and is how Jesus learn to do was because his Father SHOW HIM ALL THINGS TO DO!
Is there another way to gain a phyical body?
If there is another way to gain a phyical body, why didn't Heavenly Father show Jesus that way?
Having a hunch or speculation does not equate to scripture or doctrine!
Now who's being evasive?
I'll look forward to your answers in the morning.
Apparently so...
"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did." -- Joseph Smith, Jr., Journal of Discourses 6:3; Times and Seasons 5:614; History of the [Mormon] Church 6:305
Discourse and sermons are not scriptures.
Some take liberties but it must be witness by the quorum of the 12 each must receive a witness by the power of Holy Ghost in order for the couplet to be a doctrine.
So no matter how intriguing that couplet is to the LDS, the LDS must wait upon the Lord before it becomes a doctrine.
I hope to live forever with God. Beyond that, I cannot imagine exactly what I will be doing in the eternities.
Do you believe there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory")? --
Yes.
The Apostle Paul wrote about being "caught up to the third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2), which would imply that there are at least three heavens.
Latter-day revelation (particularly D&C 76) provides much more detail. For those in a hurry, the web site www.mormon.org provides the following brief summary:
• Celestial kingdom—Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ reside in the celestial kingdom. If you live according to the gospel of Jesus Christ and are cleansed from sin by the Atonement, you will receive a place in this, the highest kingdom, where you will live in God’s presence and know complete joy.• Terrestrial kingdom—People who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but who live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom.
• Telestial kingdom—Those who continue in their sins and do not repent until after they have died, will eventually receive a place in the telestial kingdom.
Note that entrance into the Celestial Kingdom does not depend on one's being a "good Mormon" but on living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ and being cleansed from sin by the Atonement.
What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) be like for a good Mormon? Will he be a god; will he rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children?
What the scriptures say is that those who overcome the world through faith in Jesus Christ receive all things from the Father and become "gods, even the sons of God" (D&C 76:56). I see nothing in the scriptures about ruling planets or spirit children. That is speculation. Unfortunately, a lot of folklore has been built on speculation.
Do you believe God was once a man?
Yes; don't you? Jesus Christ is God and he once lived as a mortal man.
But you undoubtedly refer to God the Father. The answer is again yes. I believe that the Father passed through mortal life in the same way that the Son did.
See Post 291.
If your statement above is true, why then the requirement for the temple ordinances, ...the endowment and sealing either on earth or by posthumous temple ordinance by proxy? Why then the requirement that one be married, either on earth or by posthumous temple ordinance by proxy? Why then must a woman be "pulled through the veil" by a man?
Why then, must one "pass the judgement of Joseph Smith to enter the Celestial kingdom?"
No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation - the keys to rule in the spirit world." - Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, p.289
"Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ", really means "Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is interpreted by the LDS church, does it not?"
I believe the creeds are valuable only insofar as their consistency with Scripture.
If the church established by Christ was even more altered and even warped then, and its true form and doctrine was lost, don't you think it necessary that it later be restored?
The Church Militant has always existed, not as an institution manipulated by governments, or as a branch of government, but as a body of believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Post #251 I answered your question with my opinion of innerancy.
What is this? Where did it come from? Who wrote it?
"If the church established by Christ was even more altered and even warped then, and its true form and doctrine was lost, don't you think it necessary that it later be restored?" Because Mormons do not comprehend the Church, they will swallow the lie that "... the church established by Christ was even more altered and even warped then, and its true form and doctrine was lost ..." and will follow after false gods of a demon inspired man's devising, Joseph Smith.
When Jesus promised to 'send another' to them, He was promising the Holy Spirit, HIS Holy Spirit would come unto them, and that not just the Apostles, but any who will believe they need salvation in Christ as He purchased for them on the cross and rose again to verify THAT COVENANT of His indwelling presence established by HIS PERFECT BLOOD.
Mormons adhere to a lie that THE Holy Spirit was lost to humankind after the last Apostle who saw Jesus in person died. They have chosen to believe this lie (they have exercised their free will to believe this lie) and in so doing have closed the door to their spirit so the very Holy Spirit they have been lied to about can not indwell them. They insist upon our being deceived by looking upon their good works. when one offers the good works of Buddhists and Ba'hais, Mormons pooh pooh this.
The entire of Mormonism rests upon the lie that God's Holy Spirit was no longer indwelling humankind once the last Apostle died, and God needed a Joseph Smith to restore the Holy Spirit to the human spirit. Islam began under similar libelous assertions by another demon inspired 'man of the flesh', albeit that demon inspired false religion sees suicide murder as 'good works'. If the flase teaching of Mormonism causes men's souls to perish eternally, is it not just as deadly, spiritually, as Islam?
The instructions from the Prophet Joseph Smith April 2, 1843
22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.
D&C 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.
Several points:
1. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, nothing else matters.
2. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15) The same idea is expressed frequently in the Bible: those who love God keep his commandments (Ex. 20:6; Deut. 5:10, 7:9, 19:9; Josh. 22:5; Dan. 9:4; John 15:10; 1 John 5:2, 3). We believe that those commandments include the making of covenants, such as those involved in the ordinances of baptism, the endowment, and eternal marriage.
3. Not everyone has the same opportunity in life to hear the gospel and accept the covenants. Because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:24), he has provided a way that all may receive the gospel and the ordinances. Hence we have the temples and proxy ordinances.
Why then, must one "pass the judgement of Joseph Smith to enter the Celestial kingdom?"
The Apostle Paul wrote that "the saints shall judge the world" and that they would "judge angels" (1 Cor. 6:2, 3) That being the case in Paul's day, I see nothing strange in the idea that Joseph Smith, through whom the ancient Church was restored, will judge those of the latter days. However, he will do so only under the direction of Jesus Christ.
"Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ", really means "Living according to the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is interpreted by the LDS church, does it not?"
Since I believe that the LDS Church understands the Gospel as well as anyone, I have no problem recommending our interpretation of it.
However, I think perhaps you may be missing an important point. Salvation is not merely a matter of interpreting the gospel, but living it. We will be judged not just by what we know but by how well we lived according to what we know. Those whose interpretation is imperfect may nevertheless be blessed by living the best they know how. As Jesus said, "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48).
I believe that God loves all mankind as his children. He desires all to be saved. He will do what he can, consistent with his justice, to save those who will be saved.
When Jesus promised to 'send another' to them, He was promising the Holy Spirit, HIS Holy Spirit would come unto them, and that not just the Apostles, but any who will believe they need salvation in Christ as He purchased for them on the cross and rose again to verify THAT COVENANT of His indwelling presence established by HIS PERFECT BLOOD.
Please clarify this more what you are trying to accuse the LDS of?
Mormons adhere to a lie that THE Holy Spirit was lost to humankind after the last Apostle who saw Jesus in person died.
They have chosen to believe this lie (they have exercised their free will to believe this lie) and in so doing have closed the door to their spirit so the very Holy Spirit they have been lied to about can not indwell them.
They insist upon our being deceived by looking upon their good works. when one offers the good works of Buddhists and Ba'hais, Mormons pooh pooh this.
Thank you for at long last saying how you preceive what the LDS believe
The entire of Mormonism rests upon the lie that God's Holy Spirit was no longer indwelling humankind once the last Apostle died, and God needed a Joseph Smith to restore the Holy Spirit to the human spirit.
Islam began under similar libelous assertions by another demon inspired 'man of the flesh', albeit that demon inspired false religion sees suicide murder as 'good works'.
If the flase teaching of Mormonism causes men's souls to perish eternally, is it not just as deadly, spiritually, as Islam?
I am not too familar with Islam doctrine.
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