Our Mormon Brothers?

Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

[Gamecock]

The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:

The First Vision

Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:

That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)

And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,

Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)

How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).

What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.

While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)

————————————————-

(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.

(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:

The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.

(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:

This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).

(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.

[DelphiUser]

All I want is to shown the AUTHORITY.

It should be simple: cut & paste.

Is this what you are looking for? D&C 132:7

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

[DelphiUser]

You’re not Catholic, so participating in the selection of the Pope isn’t going to happen for you either.

I am glad somebody got my analogy (I was beginning to wonder)

Didn’t Smith have a number of revelations?

Most of the D&C is made up of revelations to Joseph Smith.

Question: did the Pearl of Great Price come from the plate?

No, The Cover page for THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE says the following:

A SELECTION FROM THE REVELATIONS,
TRANSLATIONS, AND NARRATIONS OF
JOSEPH SMITH
FIRST PROPHET, SEER, AND REVELATOR TO
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

Do you have a link to pictures?

To my knowledge, they have never been photographed, you can however find a description of them in the Bible as part of Aaron's temple clothing.

Here is a link to all the mentioning of the Urim and Thummim in the bible Urim and Thummim in the Bible

[DelphiUser]

B O O K M A R K

[Elsie]

You know (I hate it when Hillary says this all the time!), I did not see a single thing in what you posted about secrecy.

Oh...

I did see THIS part where God evidently thought you might miss the point the first time:

(and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred)

[Elsie]

Most of the D&C is made up of revelations to Joseph Smith.

Dang!

Ya really think so???

[MarkBsnr]

Isn’t that strange?

Something as important as the Urim and Thummim has never been photographed? If Noah’s Ark, or the Ark of the Covenant, or the Cross of Jesus, or the manger in which He was born or the Shroud of Turin was in the possession of the Church, wouldn’t it be photographed, analyzed and scientifically investigated? Hmm, actually the Shroud is and it has been.

Why wouldn’t something as important as the seeing stones be subjected to the same rigourous analysis?

[DelphiUser]

I did not see a single thing in what you posted about secrecy

Secret is when you tell your girlfriend you think some guys butt is cute but not to tell him you said so.

Sacred is when God tells you some thing that is so important you are not to share it with those who are not worthy

What happens in the temple is sacred, not secret, if you really want to know, join, keep the commandments and once you are worthy, you will be able to go and learn, otherwise, if you are not willing to prepare yourself, get used to not knowing, because God said not to tell you.

I did see THIS part where God evidently thought you might miss the point the first time:

Do you have a point here or are you just flailing around saying everything negative you can based on anything said? Of course Joseph was the one who held all the keys, of course the current prophet holds all the keys, of course the power to act on those keys flows down from the prophet, or else all the "off shoots" of the Mormon church would hold the keys also (if they had been given them) but if you leave the church, the right to use the keys stays with the prophet, the only man enabled to actively use the keys on the face of the earth.

[DelphiUser]

Isn’t that strange?

No, the church has never tried to prove itself true scientifically, that would remove the important component if faith.

Something as important as the Urim and Thummim has never been photographed?

That is right, and the church will not do so now either.

If Noah’s Ark, or the Ark of the Covenant, or the Cross of Jesus, or the manger in which He was born or the Shroud of Turin was in the possession of the Church, wouldn’t it be photographed, analyzed and scientifically investigated?

Not if our church had them. The LDS church has many artifacts that have not been publicly displayed, or studied, Jesus also told many who were healed not to tell anyone. We feel the same way about artifacts, while they can teach us a lot, they should not be the basis of testimony, personal revelation should be.

Hmm, actually the Shroud is and it has been.

Lets take the Shroud of Turin for example, it has been investigated and the argument rages still, is it genuine or a hoax? It should not matter, for the truth of Jesus' resurrection is all that should matter. There will be those who believe it is genuine and revere the Turin to the point that if it is ever proven to be a fake, they will fall away, there are none who if it is "proven" to be genuine who will suddenly believe, because they will just move on tot he "Next flaw" in the church. My father taught me a saying when I got into some arguments in grade schools that I just could not win. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I love that quote, it has kept me from taking to seriously many arguments, debates and discussions.

This forum for example, I will never convince some of the antis here to even pray about it for they have either been members and fallen away and cannot bear to admit they were wrong, or they have their mind up and will not even look at the evidence of the spirit for fear they might be proven wrong, many will not even admit that God answers prayer, but will claim the devil answers when we pray to God.

My father also taught me that "You cannot change the mind with logic that was made up without the use thereof." I have found the formula of read the scriptures, pray about them and seek Gods council to be an effective way of learning his will for me, it also is very logical. We end up in all sorts of twists here some on purpose others on accident because of the perspective brought tot he table by the posters on religion. All Mormons have to do to "Win" in a forum such as this is to continue to answer with grace and cool logic, and those detractors of our faith will look stranger and stranger as they take positions further and further out. I have recieved many have Freep Mails thanking me and asking how to find out more outside of this forum. That is why we post, that is why we defend our religion here when it is scurrilosly attacked, that is why we can happily take the slings and arrows for being representatives of Jesus, for we are doing his work, just as the assulters of our religion feel that by tearing down another's faith they somehow are doing a good work, we feel we are doing a good work. I hope you and yours are well, you have been polite on this forum and I for one appreciate that.

[D-fendr]

I know LDS gets quite a lot of quarrelsome attacks and so are rightfully impatient with replies; but, I’m trying to avoid this and have an informative discussion.

There’s two points I think we disagree, I’ll try once more to make my point:

Rites are significant religious practices often, if not always, filled with symbols and symbolism. They mean something. Something more than “which side of the isle” you referred to. So, if the rites are kept secret, religious meaning is kept unknown from inquiry by non-members. The only alternative I can see is if the symbology does not have meaning.

I understand your point that these rites conform to published doctrine, however, that is not possible to know, examine or subject to interpretation from the outside.

The second point is secret vs. sacred. These are two different words with two different meanings. Something can be both, either or neither. What I’m focusing on is what is kept secret. You could conflate the two, but that would be a new definition of sacred. And would mean everything published by the LDS and every ritural, baptism, confirmation, etc., that is open to non-members is therefore not sacred. So I think how you delineate the two concepts is problematic.

Thanks for your elaboration on these rites. And, no, I wasn’t asking you to violate your vows, I was trying to find information in ways that you could answer without doing so.

You said you didn’t learn anything new in your Endowment. And described it as “an instructional part, with covenants with God to keep his commandments”. If I’m correct in restating this, then why is it kept secret? Alternatively, if all the instruction and covenants are published in other forms, how is it still, according to your definition, “sacred.”

I am guessing that there is part of the instructional part that is not publicly known?

If not, then I think what you are saying is that the rite is an acting out of the doctrine. A play if you will. And I don’t mean this disrepctfully, merely as descriptive. And, if so, you are saying the costumes, scripts and stage directions are what are the sacred part that must be kept secret.

Anyway, I don’t think we’re going to agree here. I believe what is taught by a religion should not be kept from inquiry. “Pearls before swine” I think is insulting to serious inquirers. Certainly not all non-LDS are swine.

I do understand your belief that God commands you not repeat or describe certain parts of your religion. And I’ll repeat that this inevitably limits full discussion.

I also appreciate and have experienced cruel attacks from those who will find fault no matter what. Our religious beliefs are sacred to us all. Some cannot discuss without becoming combative, some cannot discuss without seeing every question as combative. Some can find ways to discuss and disagree passionately without being discourteous or disrespective.

I appreciate you patience and reply...

[MarkBsnr]

Well, thanks very much for the compliment. I must say that you have been uncommonly free in your conversation and it is much appreciated.

The Catholic Church has never proven itself scientifically, yet it maintained scientific progress, almost alone, for centuries. Scientific advancement is not against Church teachings; some in the Church have done very wrong in going after progress. So it is logical that the Shroud needs to be investigated, in an unprofane manner, of course.

We don’t keep sacred relics secret. We think that they need to be shared with the people of God, and displayed to those who aren’t. We don’t believe that we should be a secret society and in fact (one of the reasons that Freemasonry isn’t compatible - only one of many) we disapprove of them entirely.

There are many here who claim that prayer is Biblical and powerful, yet don’t do it except maybe on a very occasional and perfunctory basis. Many here will quote verses about bending knee before God, yet never kneel. Many here debate about whether the holy day of the week is on Saturday or Sunday, yet don’t worship on either day. Much may be made about the birth of Our Lord, yet how many Christians don’t bother with it. Much may be made about the suffering, death and resurrection of Our Lord, yet many megachurches are nearly empty on Easter Sunday. I recently read a story (was it a topic here on FR?) about megachurches shutting down for the summer because of lack of people attending. Hmm, this passage here might work better over on the Anti Catholic Hypocrisy topic.

The LDS has a published doctrine. There is church hierarchy and teaching and correcting. It ain’t a free-for-all where the catch-phrase for the day gets you a megachurch until the you’re caught with the secretary, the male prostitute, or 3/4 of the treasury.

The differences in our theology of course, are vast. But that does not make an insurmountable gap to conversation. I think that perhaps some of more vehement are actually struggling with their faith. The force of their posts is actually distraction from their internal struggle.

[Elsie]

 What happens in the temple is sacred, not secret,

 

Sorry - tell this lie to someone else; for you have NO scriptural authority to do your temple rites.

 

 

 

if you really want to know, join, keep the commandments and once you are worthy,

 

(A fully obeying LDS organization member)

 

 

you will be able to go and learn, otherwise, if you are not willing to prepare yourself, get used to not knowing, because God said not to tell you.

 

No; some MAN told you not to 'tell'; not God.  If GOD had told you; it would be in your Scriptures.  It is not.

[Elsie]

That is right, and the church will not do so now either.

 

 

They're SECRET!!  (I mean SACRED!!!) you BOOB!!!!

 

Don't you know they are so HOLY   that mere sight of them,

 by you non-Living Prophet folks would cause your next child to be born NAKED!!! 

(Believe me; this HAS happened before!)

 

--MormonDude

[Elsie]

We end up in all sorts of twists here some on purpose others on accident because of the perspective brought tot he table by the posters on religion. All Mormons have to do to "Win" in a forum such as this is to continue to answer with grace and cool logic, and those detractors of our faith will look stranger and stranger as they take positions further and further out.

Yup: THAT's working real well!

[Elsie]

There’s two points I think we disagree, I’ll try once more to make my point:

Oh; yer points been made quite well, but yer thick head just don't get the FACT that we CANNOT explain it to you, for it is so illogical!

--MormonDude

[Elsie]

Certainly not all non-LDS are swine.

Right on!!!

Some of us are really cute cows!!

[MarkBsnr]

Elsie, I think that it’s been made quite clear that LDS doctrine includes a number of Christian heresies and that at least some of the members are fairly open about it.

They follow Gnosticism, Origen’s heresies, Arianism (with the qualifier that although the LDS believes that Jesus is divine now, they believe that he wasn’t at one time), and are semi-Pelagian.

You should do your own research into the LDS rites. Unlike many of our Protestant opponents, I try to do some research before making claims and then try to relate the answers back to the source in order to judge both the respondant and the source. Perhaps I can assist.

[Elsie]

You should do your own research into the LDS rites.

I've looked on the official LDS organization's website, LDS.ORG, but can't seem to find any content that explains them in full.

Since EVERYTHING that is NOT an 'official' Mormon site gets dismissed by the faithful members I come across in these threads, and, since they will not talk about them; it's really hard to see how anything you'd have to say would be acceptable - (in their eyes anyway.)

[greyfoxx39]

Love the cute cow!

[Elsie]

It has SURE gotten quiet in this thread!!

[greyfoxx39]

Flame-throwers hard at work on another thread. Should I ping one, just for the entertainment?