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Isn’t that strange?

No, the church has never tried to prove itself true scientifically, that would remove the important component if faith.

Something as important as the Urim and Thummim has never been photographed?

That is right, and the church will not do so now either.

If Noah’s Ark, or the Ark of the Covenant, or the Cross of Jesus, or the manger in which He was born or the Shroud of Turin was in the possession of the Church, wouldn’t it be photographed, analyzed and scientifically investigated?

Not if our church had them. The LDS church has many artifacts that have not been publicly displayed, or studied, Jesus also told many who were healed not to tell anyone. We feel the same way about artifacts, while they can teach us a lot, they should not be the basis of testimony, personal revelation should be.

Hmm, actually the Shroud is and it has been.

Lets take the Shroud of Turin for example, it has been investigated and the argument rages still, is it genuine or a hoax? It should not matter, for the truth of Jesus' resurrection is all that should matter. There will be those who believe it is genuine and revere the Turin to the point that if it is ever proven to be a fake, they will fall away, there are none who if it is "proven" to be genuine who will suddenly believe, because they will just move on tot he "Next flaw" in the church. My father taught me a saying when I got into some arguments in grade schools that I just could not win. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I love that quote, it has kept me from taking to seriously many arguments, debates and discussions.

This forum for example, I will never convince some of the antis here to even pray about it for they have either been members and fallen away and cannot bear to admit they were wrong, or they have their mind up and will not even look at the evidence of the spirit for fear they might be proven wrong, many will not even admit that God answers prayer, but will claim the devil answers when we pray to God.

My father also taught me that "You cannot change the mind with logic that was made up without the use thereof." I have found the formula of read the scriptures, pray about them and seek Gods council to be an effective way of learning his will for me, it also is very logical. We end up in all sorts of twists here some on purpose others on accident because of the perspective brought tot he table by the posters on religion. All Mormons have to do to "Win" in a forum such as this is to continue to answer with grace and cool logic, and those detractors of our faith will look stranger and stranger as they take positions further and further out. I have recieved many have Freep Mails thanking me and asking how to find out more outside of this forum. That is why we post, that is why we defend our religion here when it is scurrilosly attacked, that is why we can happily take the slings and arrows for being representatives of Jesus, for we are doing his work, just as the assulters of our religion feel that by tearing down another's faith they somehow are doing a good work, we feel we are doing a good work. I hope you and yours are well, you have been polite on this forum and I for one appreciate that.

Well, thanks very much for the compliment. I must say that you have been uncommonly free in your conversation and it is much appreciated.

The Catholic Church has never proven itself scientifically, yet it maintained scientific progress, almost alone, for centuries. Scientific advancement is not against Church teachings; some in the Church have done very wrong in going after progress. So it is logical that the Shroud needs to be investigated, in an unprofane manner, of course.

We don’t keep sacred relics secret. We think that they need to be shared with the people of God, and displayed to those who aren’t. We don’t believe that we should be a secret society and in fact (one of the reasons that Freemasonry isn’t compatible - only one of many) we disapprove of them entirely.

There are many here who claim that prayer is Biblical and powerful, yet don’t do it except maybe on a very occasional and perfunctory basis. Many here will quote verses about bending knee before God, yet never kneel. Many here debate about whether the holy day of the week is on Saturday or Sunday, yet don’t worship on either day. Much may be made about the birth of Our Lord, yet how many Christians don’t bother with it. Much may be made about the suffering, death and resurrection of Our Lord, yet many megachurches are nearly empty on Easter Sunday. I recently read a story (was it a topic here on FR?) about megachurches shutting down for the summer because of lack of people attending. Hmm, this passage here might work better over on the Anti Catholic Hypocrisy topic.

The LDS has a published doctrine. There is church hierarchy and teaching and correcting. It ain’t a free-for-all where the catch-phrase for the day gets you a megachurch until the you’re caught with the secretary, the male prostitute, or 3/4 of the treasury.

The differences in our theology of course, are vast. But that does not make an insurmountable gap to conversation. I think that perhaps some of more vehement are actually struggling with their faith. The force of their posts is actually distraction from their internal struggle.

That is right, and the church will not do so now either.

They're SECRET!! (I mean SACRED!!!) you BOOB!!!!

Don't you know they are so HOLY that mere sight of them,

by you non-Living Prophet folks would cause your next child to be born NAKED!!!

(Believe me; this HAS happened before!)

--MormonDude

We end up in all sorts of twists here some on purpose others on accident because of the perspective brought tot he table by the posters on religion. All Mormons have to do to "Win" in a forum such as this is to continue to answer with grace and cool logic, and those detractors of our faith will look stranger and stranger as they take positions further and further out.

Yup: THAT's working real well!