Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[unspun]

Frank Sheed, Tax-chick and I are getting these. What do you think? :)

To be frank, I think of Matthew 23:9. 8-|

[tiki]

LOL, you are saying that to me? You who wants me to start a thread for every question you want to avoid? I think that in your frenzy to reply and “debunk” Catholic belief that you forget that I replied to you in 423. Is it because you can not honestly answer?

[ichabod1]

Genuflect

You might have mentioned "Make a sort of curtsy while crossing self, knee never coming anywhere near the floor." I may be Catholic, but I'd never claim some of this stuff doesn't irritate me. But I will say that all of the things we do make us part of the Mass rather than passive listeners there to be entertained.

[Ping-Pong]

He is not the Father of all men. He is only the father of the saved, that are the adopted sons of God.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

As He created all would He not be the Father of all?

[pjr12345]

You have an uncommonly delightful sense of humor.

[GoLightly]

"sort of curtsy while crossing self, knee never coming anywhere near the floor."

I think there's another part that's also been skipped. Don't y'all put your hand into the dealybob of holy water before y'all cross yourselves or is that too old school?

Parking lot leaving etiquette seems to have included blinding the driver to any small kids that live in the neighborhood. If the kids live in the area they either learn to avoid areas where cars are leaving the parking lot after Mass or the Darwin effect applies. I'm happy to report that a huge nondenominational church moved into my neighborhood & in the leaving parking lot etiquette, they're fully Catholic compliant.

[ichabod1]

You’re absolutely right! There’s a dip and a crossing upon entering the church, the curtsy comes before entering the pew.

I go to an old school parish, there’s a sign saying a genuflection is expected of all the faithful.

[ichabod1]

What a sweet thing to say. My friends at work find me so as well, but sometimes I can be annoying if not downright infuriating. My best friend at work was lamenting the age difference between she and her husband — she’s 37 and he’s 52, and I said, well she looks old for her age... She didn’t speak to me all day. I passed along a message through another friend that I would never in a million years have said that if I even remotely thought it was true.

[tiki]

Yooooohooooo, where ARE you?

[pjr12345]

I have failed in my attempt to fully capture the catholic experience. I am shamed.

The only question is whether it’s a venial sin I can pray away, or a mortal sin that must be burned off in purgatory. If it’s mortal, I’m having my the pockets of my funeral suit stuffed with hotdogs and marshmallows.

[livius]

Bow to the altar, kneel to the Blessed Sacrament.

Once upon a time, the Blessed Sacrament (the consecrated altar bread, that is, Our Lord, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity) was kept in a box, known as a Tabernacle, at the back of the main altar in the church. After Vatican II, they moved the Blessed Sacrament to a side chapel.

So now Catholics look around when they enter a church. If you see a red lamp burning, that indicates that the Blessed Sacrament is present, and you genuflect (”curtsey”) in that direction. If there’s no lamp and no tabernacle, then you bow to the altar, which is front and center in the church.

[tiki]

Have you ever felt an onslaught of evil like you find on these religion threads? What is odd is that non-Catholics stick together when it is about Catholics but they disagree with each other on their religions too. Each one is in the true church and has the true faith but "Catholics are damned" must be the tenet of every non-Cathlic faith. I'll have to look it up, LOL

I don't know who said it but it reminds me of this quote, ""Everyone is crazy except me and thee and sometimes I suspect even thee"

Seriously though, I do feel that their presence is not from God. But we know that God can use their evil for good.

[GoLightly]

I remember the holy water & curtsy from when I was a kid, back when Mass was in Latin.

Can’t say I noticed it much after I became an adult, but I don’t think I ever went to a Mass that didn’t include a wedding as an adult & a portion of the congregation at a wedding wouldn’t be Catholic. Funerals include or are a Mass, right? Still, a portion of the congregation wouldn’t be Catholic. Like I said, I got the impression that the curtsy & holy water went the way of the doily on the head.

[pjr12345]

Wow! You probably should have sent that post as a private message. It doesn’t help your discourse if the one who you’re attempting to influence knows you consider him evil.

BTW, God can work with anyone alive under any circumstance. The fact that there are so many ex-catholics (such as myself) on these threads is proof. Don’t fret; there’s hope for you, too!

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, nobody has yet answered the question, "Who determined the contents of Scripture?"

As you noted, Tiki gave the answer about 100 posts ago but is being studiously ignored.

That's the real problem with YOPIOS . . . not that individual interpretations vary widely, but that the first interpretation was necessary.

[AnAmericanMother]

No, these folks are REALLY trashy, not just mildly trashy. People your redneck cousin would call trashy.

It's a street up behind us occupied by a few abandoned houses, one of which is a crack house, a couple of old folks who've been living there about 50 years, and a bunch of young thugs with pit bulls.

Periodically the police go in there and clean it all out, sixty days later they or their buddies are back.

[tiki]

I was just noticing again another tactic that is used. That of the false peace-maker. Those who walk into the room and say why would you reply such a thing to some non-Catholic? They take your words out of context because they haven’t followed the thread and read it in context. The funny thing is that 99% of them are non-Catholics. And if you engage them further than a few words it turns out that they hold the same disdain for Catholicism as those other non-Catholics.

[pjr12345]

YOPIOS ALERT!!!

You have invoked the invalid argument of YOPIOS. Any debate that may be occurring is officially ended. Your opponent is hereby declared victorious.

Thanks for playing. Better luck next time!

[GoLightly]

I have failed in my attempt to fully capture the catholic experience. I am shamed.

For twenty years I listened to my Mother-in-Law lament about the way her son, the former alter boy had fallen away from the Church & she reminded him more than yearly about the time the Monseigneur had washed his feet. Ex said that the Monseigneur would stop Mass to stare down any late arrivals. He was NOT a Priest to trifle with.

Since I'd never gone to a foot washing, I felt that I'd managed to miss one of the main events.

[AnAmericanMother]

Have you read The Great Divorce?

I think it's even better than Screwtape. And yes, I keep seeing myself . . . . < shudder >