Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[ears_to_hear]

So, God saying that He is no respecter of persons is of no importance? Is He a liar?

What is the context of your quote? Context , context , context . Who was it written to and what was the point being made?

Hint

It was not the supremacy of God in election

Scripture must be consistent and not contradict other scriptures and the principle must be taught elsewhere or we have a confused and mutable God

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 ¶What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

There is no dodging this issue. If God chooses one sinner over another, He is in fact a respecter of persons, and a liar to boot. He is arbitrary and not Supreme, and therefore unworthy of worship.

Define sovereign

[pjr12345]

YOPIOS is the last bastion of those unable to defend against the Truth of Scripture.

It stands for Your Own Personal Interpretation Of Scripture.

[ears_to_hear]

Congratulations Mr. Sheed! You win the prize for being the first to grope for the YOPIOS defens

LOL, But it happens that Augustine agrees with me :)

[N3WBI3]

TY

[Frank Sheed]

Bully! Someone agrees with you!

;-o)

[ears_to_hear]

The only thing that is holy is what God declares holy. One has no holiness aside from that .

The word holy means set aside for Gods purpose not some intrinsic value . Mary was holy ( set aside for the purpose of God, but I prefer to worship and pray to and meditate on the one that declares things holy rather than one of the objects or people declares holy.

The object in the temple were holy, would you pray to them?

[GoLightly]

I was talking about the outside. Someone mentioned the “trashy” people with the dog that always wandered & it made me wonder if they were one of my neighbors, cept my dawg died a few years ago. My ex used to try to manipulate me, by telling me that people were talking about me behind my back. If people feel the need to look down their nose at someone, they can start with me. If instead, they wanna see what I’m saying & it causes them to examine their behaviour...

I have no doubt that He answers my prayers, but the answer has usually been “no Holly, you need this instead”. He has *always* been right, while me, not so much. ;o)

[ears_to_hear]

Son to become man in the womb of an unholy woman

The same Son that came to walk on the cursed earth and eat with sinners and get his feet dirty as He walked? THAT Son?

Jesus was FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN , He did not need to be kept in a sterile bubble, that would have been contrary to His call as the propitiation for men

Did He need to get his sinless nature from His mother?

Jesus was God and fully Divine, He did not need a sinless mother to bear Him. Mary gave jesus His HUMAN nature not His divine one

[ears_to_hear]

Bully! Someone agrees with you!

Not just SOMEONE , a Doctor of your church.

I think his opinion shows thee was not complete unity in the church that Peter was the "pope". Even Peter never claimed that for himself

[ears_to_hear]

Come on , I have all night

[Frank Sheed]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1413750/posts

Note the date, two years old.

[Frank Sheed]

http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/25

Excellent! Start with all these first. Then, read “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed, Ignatius Press. It is quite good on revealing the Theology of the Catholic Church in an abridged version.

F

[GoLightly]

How do you know that the person on earth that you ask to pray for you isn’t going to end up in hell? How do you know that your minister who is leading his flock isn’t going to hell? How do you know that the person who constantly quotes scripture on internet forums isn’t going to hell? How could a truly pious, SAINT go to hell? If he was truly pious and truly a Saint then he is with God.

Why do we pray & why should we pray for others? Think we pray so that God will give us what we want, whether that want is for us or someone else? Think those who are in heaven still need to pray for others & if they want to do it, think they need us to make our "requirements" known to them?

[Uri’el-2012]

Is Frank Sheed your god?

Have you ever considered YHvH ?

[higgmeister]

"Bless us Oh Lord and these thy gifts we have received through thy bounty through Christ Our Lord"

LOL...        You would not believe how shocked I was to hear that blessing the first time. My next thought was that we would probably have to go around the table offering a blessing from each person to use up the alloted time. I sat there for a few minutes looking around at people for any sign that there was a false start and the real blessing would resume after a penalty flag.

Finally, after a week or two, I decided that Catholic's just must not like cold meals.

[tiki]

What are you reading into my reply? We pray to know God’s will.

[ears_to_hear]

I am not going to have a discussion with some web site. I want to hear what YOUR thoughts are.

I know catholics are used to "canned debates"and "canned answers"

But I like one on one discussion..

[mockingbyrd]

Holy implies without Sin there is no one who is Holy save God

How so?

Holy can mean blessed, full of grace, full of the life of God. I found Mother Theresa to be a holy woman. I know my parents both to be holy people. I find Billy Graham to be a holy person.

All of those are fallen sinners, but they all have grown close to their Lord and Savior and are filled with His grace.

You can't take your definition of holy and assume that's what all people mean by it.

[GoLightly]

There is no dodging this issue. If God chooses one sinner over another, He is in fact a respecter of persons, and a liar to boot. He is arbitrary and not Supreme, and therefore unworthy of worship.

What was the lie that Satan told Eve about partaking the forbidden fruit? Your eyes are open & you're looking with them, but you're not seeing. Satan's lie was still a lie. He chooses whom He will & His choice is just, because He is just. He is not arbitrary & He told us how we can discern those who are probably among the elect.

[GoLightly]

How do the saints help you to know God’s will?