Posted on 05/27/2007 7:17:23 PM PDT by Gamecock
The numbers tell the story.
Time magazine wanted to talk theology with Mel Gibson recently on the set of The Passion, his new movie depicting the last hours of Christ. Asked what he thought about the effects of the Second Vatican Council on the Catholic Church, the Braveheart of Catholic traditionalists said, "Look at the main fruits: dwindling numbers and pedophilia."
Gibson's post Vatican II ergo propter Vatican II argument would be enough to drive any high school logic teacher crazy. Is the Council responsible for all the Church's ills, including the priestly sex-abuse crisis, that have arisen since the Council closed in 1965? After all, many of the abuse allegations pre-dated the Council, and some of the most notorious offenders--like John Geoghan and Paul Shanley--were trained in the pre-Vatican II seminaries. Too many factors come into play to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Council caused the pedophile priest phenomenon.
But Gibson comes closer to the mark when blaming the Second Vatican Council for the "dwindling numbers . In fact he is being generous, because "plummeting would be a more accurate term than "dwindling" to describe of the incredibly shrinking Catholic Church since 1965. In every area that is statistically measurable--such as the number of priests, seminarians, priestless parishes and nuns--the deterioration is obvious, and is the exact opposite of the trends before the Council.
EMPTY SEMINARIES
Beyond a vague understanding of a need for "more vocations," most Catholics are perhaps unaware of the disaster facing the American priesthood. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests--and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.
The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US--a total of 549--were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.
As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.
And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.
RELIGIOUS ORDERS DISAPPEARING
The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000--and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.
The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.
Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.
Given these alarming facts, one wonders how a movie star like Mel Gibson can sense a Church in extremis, but the American bishops cannot. They know the statistics (which are published by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops), yet take no action to counter the catastrophe.
The bishops do not have a good track record when it comes to responding to crisis. Just as they showed no interest in the sexual abuse of minors--in fact they were sometimes complicit--it is a good bet that the bishops will neglect the emergency that threatens the very existence of the Church in the America.
[AUTHOR ID] Kenneth C Jones of St. Louis is the author of Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II, published by Oriens Publishing Co.
nice numbers. do you have a nice ( credible ) source as well?
See post #43.
Some do. Mine was built in the 1840's, is in a depressed inner-city neighborhood, is now a mission run out of a neighboring parish, and offers 1 mass per week.
And that Mass is SRO, and most of the adults in the congregation are in their 30's or early 40's, with loads of kids in tow.
My diocese had only a couple of seminarians in 2003. Now, under a new bishop, we have 15 or maybe more. We've also received several ex-Episcopalian clergy, some of whom will pursue ordination to the priesthood.
You still have not answered my question about why you are posting an article in 2007 that is dated 2003??
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1840739/posts?page=26#26
Couldn’t be trying to dig up negative things about the Catholic Church, now, could it??? (A little sarcasm there, I know.)
and what doest that have to do with the growth of the rcc? you’re off topic. And the state a Massachusetts, a primarily catholic state, has the lowest divorce rate in the USA while the so-called bible belt has the highest. they seemed to ignore Matthew 19. Meanwhile, many mainstream protestant churches are begging for members, they have one service on a Sunday and still can’t manage to get 50 people to attend. They’re closing them down all the time.
I have defined God in my own image? How so? I have found a God who loves me so much that He gave His only begotten Son for me and the whole world (John 3:16). I made the decision to follow Him (John 1:12) because the Father drew me to Himself (John 6:44). I realized that I was a sinner and He forgave my sins. I became born again when Jesus came into my being and abided with me after I believed.
God has said again and again to come to Him in the Old and New Testament (Isaiah 1:18, Revelation 22:17). So I did.
In Romans 9, God chose Jacob for the purpose of carrying forth what God wanted, 1) that Jacob’s line would be a nation who stood above all other nations to show them God working in their lives; and 2) that the Messiah would come through Jacob, not Esau. Esau could have made better use of his life if he had sought God and obeyed Him.
May I add some Scripture that I feel that the Lord wants me to say to yours? Romans 10:8,9 and 10; that is, “But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
May I add this too? Romans 10:14-17, “But then how can they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who brings glad tidings of good things!’ But they (meaning Israel) have not obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, ‘Lord who has believed our report?’ So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.”
Here it is the responsibility of every person who hears the Word of God to say yes or no to Jesus becoming their Lord and Savior.
The election of Benedict XVI has had a wonderful effect on Church statistics, but the numbers probably won't be public for a while yet.
ah, but all we need to counteract this terrible fall in faith is to become a saint.
Are you doing that?
We have several seminarians and a new priest who will be ordained next month.
My husband and I are CONVERTS from Protestantism, and we were both in RCIA classes which numbered over 50.
The Church is alive and well. Sorry if some don't like it, but that's the way it is.
Quite frankly, I really don't care what the polls or the critics say. I have joined the One True Church, after years of wandering in the conflicting opinions of various branches of Protestantism. I am home, and am glad to be there.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:
Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
This is a reposting of an OLD thread. In spite of multiple requests, the poster, a known and often virulent anti-Catholic, has failed to explain this out-dated post. I have hit the abuse button and complained. I suggest you do as your conscience dictates, but I see this as a deliberate effort to sow discord among the forum.
I'll ask you again, how do you know that the Bible you use is the inspired Word of God?
It is not my purpose to debate with you, only that you sincerely examine what you are saying to see if it matches what you really mean to say. Does this wish arise from God, or from some other source? You wish men you call heretics to lead not only themselves but also others astray? Do you find such a notion in Scriptures or the tradition of the church? Paul encountered a situation much like this in Corinth, when those who embraced herectical or immoral ideas spread by the false teachers influenced the church, and he reprimanded them harshly and attempted through his acts to bring them to repentence. He certainly didn't tell the leaders of that church to expel these men and to throw them into another flock!! His instruction was founded on love; to forgive the offender(s) who repented (2 Cor 2:5-11) and even for the unrepentent, the step of removing them from the church was done in love, with steadfast hope of their eventual repentance and salvation (1 Cor 5:1-4). You appear to have no love or concern for the salvation of either the wayward brothers in your own denomination or those you believe are misguided in other denominations. I will pray for you, that you would receive God's grace in abundance, and that you might give mercy as freely as He has given to you.
You can’t forgive a heretic until he has repented. If people do not wish to abide by Catholic doctrine, they should be honest and separate themselves. Staying in the Church lets them lead many, many more people astray than if they left.
Their repentance and reconciliation is always a possibility. But they have to do it, and cannot be kept within the bosom of the Church to poison others if they do not do so. And the bishops are falling down on their duty to protect the flock if they do not declare this.
And its mostly people under 50 with lots of little kids.
And one who some to Christ later in his life. Is that God's time for it, or just the one's choice? If our hearts are filled with the desire to serve God and find His kingdom, who are we to say this came about of us or God?
What is the source of the desire itself? 
This is the only part of your post that I'd disagree with. IMO you can forgive them. But there's a whole bunch of other stuff that you should(n't) do until they repent.
If people do not wish to abide by Catholic doctrine, they should be honest and separate themselves. Staying in the Church lets them lead many, many more people astray than if they left.
Amen!
Their repentance and reconciliation is always a possibility. But they have to do it, and cannot be kept within the bosom of the Church to poison others if they do not do so. And the bishops are falling down on their duty to protect the flock if they do not declare this.
Amen, amen, and AMEN livius! IMO this equally applies to those in Protestant denominations as it does to the Catholic church. This is why I don't believe that Catholics should be so eager to trumpet the growth the current church is experiencing. Until (unless) a change in public morality matches the change in membership numbers, any real growth is IMO illusionary and deceptive.
Still the longest lived institution on the planet, even when arguing amongst themselves, she’ll be here long after the mainline protestant denominations have gone, which doesn’t seem likely to be much longer. Then she’ll outlast the muslims, and be there at the second coming.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.