The Way of the Disaster ...when debating atheists, first know what you are talking about

CAMPONTHIS ^ | May 21, 2007 | Steve Camp

[streetpreacher]

Saturday, May 12, 2007

The Way of the Disaster
...when debating atheists, first know what you are talking about

 

 

Clint Eastwood, in his famous “Dirty Harry” detective series, makes this profound statement: ”a man’s got to know his limitations.” Such wisdom would also apply in the field of apologetics when actor Kirk Cameron and evangelist Ray Comfort said they could prove the existence of God (100% scientifically guaranteed) as fact, without using the Bible or appealing to faith. It sadly and unfortunately went downhill from there.

I really do appreciate and thank the Lord for both Kirk and Ray (though I have never met them in person) and what they are trying to accomplish through their Way of the Master program. They have brought back a right emphasis on the Law of God in presenting the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Though their approach and methods come off as a bit prepackaged and pedestrian, they do garner some vigorous responses and have had opportunities to proclaim Christ (it is obvious they are dear brothers in the Lord with a burden for lost people.)

But personal feelings aside, you must take the time to know the Word of God and the subject you are addressing if you are going to step out on national TV and try and debate two atheists "the existence of God." We must remember beloved that the gospel is not an offer to unsaved people, it is a call to follow Jesus Christ, a command to repent of your sins, and a compelling to be reconciled to God (Matt. 16:24; Acts 17:16ff; 2 Cor. 5:16-21).

BTW, these two atheists were not intellectual elites or gifted apologists for their views. They were two uptight, ticked off academic lightweights with an obvious agenda who came off as if they took a trip to the National Museum of Science and Industry to "study" fossils in order to bone-up on their views before that evening's debate using very stunted, sophmoric, and handicaped logic. Any prepared Christian apologist should have swept the floor with them... (in a loving Christian way of course calling them to repentance.) Both of them claimed to be Christians before becoming atheists.

In case you didn’t see this debate on "ABCNews Face Off" this past Thursday evening—the premise was this: Ray comfort contacted ABC and said that he wanted to debate two atheists on the existence of God that he had seen on an ABC Nightline show some months before that featured a “Blasphemy Challenge.” He went on to say that he could 100% scientifically prove God’s existence without appealing to faith or Scripture - that is was a matter of fact and didn't require faith to be convinced of its truthfulness.

This was a recipe for disaster from the get go:


First of all, no biblical text ever asserts or affirms this kind of tactic. It might play well on ABC for a bit of evening controversy, but little if anything profitable for the kingdom came of this disappointing display of inept, unprepared, and unbiblical apologetics. To add insult to injury, neither Kirk nor Ray proved "100% scientifically the existence of God" by using science. Secondly, they never presented one shred of scientific evidence to support their dogmatic claim. Thirdly, I didn’t think it was possible for a Christian to lose a debate on "the existence of God" to two atheists—but that is exactly what happened.

This debate took place at Calvary Baptist Church in downtown New York. I have ministered there before in word and song; and it was pastored for several years by my dear late friend, Dr. Stephen Olford. I can only imagine what he would be saying today if he was here to witness this weak and ill-prepared exchange from two men representing the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel? He would be ashamed.


 

"Let us suppose that Kirk and Ray
actually persuaded the atheists
on live TV that God does exist.
What would that have proven?
It would not have proven the
Biblical triune God who has
revealed himself in Holy Scripture.

In other words, the atheists would have been
as much unregenerate as they were before.

[as James White has said]
'What you win them with is what you win them to.'"

-Alan Kurschner
 

This debate proved a few things though: 1. "religious talking points" in the real world of unbridled ideas and seasoned news professionals is an effort in futility and doesn’t serve well the cause of the gospel. 2. the gospel, beloved, IS the power of God unto salvation--not some foolish, silly around the barn approach to proving God's existence scientifically. And 3. that the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is not an offer of salvation, but a call and command to follow Jesus and be reconciled unto God (2 Cor. 5:16-21; Acts 17:19-31).

On a personal note: my brothers in the Lord - Kirk and Ray: please, I beg you, stay out of mainstream media until you know your subject; stop running your Way Of The Master infomercials on TBN - it is foolish to be aligned with a network that promotes most of the time an unbiblical view of God, the gospel and the person of Jesus Christ; get trained biblically in the essentials of the faith and apologetics; don’t do any more debates until you are really prepared; invite some others to carry the lionshare of the debate for you (i.e., Dr. James White, Ravi Zacharias, etc.); learn how to communicate the gospel of sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus to nonbelievers when real questions are being asked; listen to what people are actually asking you and saying to you (1 Peter 3:15); and finally, if you ever have the courage to enter an exchange of ideas like this again on national TV representing the gospel, the Lord, and His people, please be prepared and really know what you are talking about.

Your motives seem well intentioned, but your lack of knowledge (both biblically and scientifically) on this issue and your failure to communicate clearly to those you were debating, has lost you real credibility not only among nonbelievers, but also among believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as well.

If you haven't seen the debate, I would encourage you to watch it here. Be prepared, it is painful to watch.


 

By popular off forum demand, a "Mulligan" has been given to Ray and Kirk
 

 

posted by SJ Camp at 5/12/2007 01:10:00 PM  

[streetpreacher]

Brother Steve takes Ray and Kirk to the woodshed.

[streetpreacher]

FYI

[streetpreacher]

PING

[SampleMan]

My questions to atheists are:
Where did matter come from (how can something have always existed)?
How can time be infinite in past and future?
How can space be infinite (how can it not be infinite)?

When there are scientific answers or even theories to these most fundamental of questions concerning our existence, come back and tell me there is no God.

[Risky-Riskerdo]

It may have been better to have undersold and over delivered rather than the opposite.

[kawaii]

the whole point of be baptised and beleive is that its not written in a peer reviwed journal. it is the truth revealed by God.

those that expect God to write a scientific journal may as well hold their breath, and we’d all be better served.

[Wings-n-Wind]

Brother Steve takes Ray and Kirk to the woodshed.

Yes he does.... concur with your analysis...

But...
Brother Steve wasn't in the arena... Ray & Kirk were given the opportunity.

If he has words of encouragement or correction for Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron-- perhaps...
(1) He should contact them... personally
(2) Buy the coffee (or lunch.....) AND..
(3) Offer his thoughts with a servant's heart; a right spirit.

This open criticism and subtle mockery of brothers-in-Christ(Way of Disaster?) is at least counter-productive.

The columnist admits he has never met them, or spoken with them in person. If he really feels they have somehow sinned against God or himself...

Perhaps Mr. Camp should seek the Lord's counsel in Matthew 18 about confronting your brother in private -- BEFORE begging two or three witnesses... or telling it to the church....

Much less airing out his complaints in public print.

**********

I had the privilege of sitting under the teaching of Ray Comfort & Kirk Cameron in Americus, GA in April.

I can assure Mr. Camp that both of these brothers... especially Ray Comfort... are more than knowledgable and competent as ministers and teachers of the Word.

[LiteKeeper]

The real bottom line question: where does the information of life come from?

[uptoolate]

You are right on with your assessment.

I presume you have sent this post to Brother Steve?

[streetpreacher]

I’m not sure this applies as it wasn’t so much a rebuke for personal sin or erroneous doctrine but a criticism of public methods. I think it had to be addressed publicly, but I agree with you that the title is unfortunate. That said, I appreciate the fact that Ray is being used by the Lord to return the Church to Biblical evangelism. I appreciate his ministry in this regard but I have always wondered if his brand of creationist apologetics is oversimplistic and a little on the weak side.

[streetpreacher]

I used the euphemism of “woodshed” lightheartedly. I don’t see this as a rebuke.

Note this line: “I really do appreciate and thank the Lord for both Kirk and Ray (though I have never met them in person) and what they are trying to accomplish through their Way of the Master program. They have brought back a right emphasis on the Law of God in presenting the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Though their approach and methods come off as a bit prepackaged and pedestrian, they do garner some vigorous responses and have had opportunities to proclaim Christ (it is obvious they are dear brothers in the Lord with a burden for lost people.)”

[uptoolate]

I used the euphemism of “woodshed” lightheartedly. I don’t see this as a rebuke.

But that is exactly what he did. Think of the headlines and bad press that could be written about his comments. When brothers disagree, our laundry should not be aired out in front of the children of the world, for they will do with it what comes naturally to them. So in that aspect I think Wings-n-Wind made the appropriate assessment of what Brother Steve did and should do and Wings-n-Wind should let Brother Steve know this.

[Wings-n-Wind]

If Ray & Kirk are doing the best they can with the gifts and resources God has given them...

Who are we.... and who is Brother Steve to take them to task publicly??

Especially with a hint of mockery... Way of Disaster?

OUCH....

[SampleMan]

The real bottom line question: where does the information of life come from?

With all due respect, I do think the matter of infinity is the bottom line question.

How can matter, space, and time have always existed? There is no scientific explanation.

Given that they do exist, how could they have ever not existed? There is no scientific explanation.

[Wings-n-Wind]

I presume you have sent this post to Brother Steve?

Indeed...

[onedoug]

I ran into a guy who claimed to be an atheist, but when I began making points about the universe and how it seems to be constructed, claimed he didn't want to talk about it.

That's an atheist for ya'.

[libravoter]

Where did matter come from (how can something have always existed)

My dad is an athiest. And his answer to that is always "Who made God?"

[SampleMan]

My dad is an athiest. And his answer to that is always "Who made God?"

That is an admission that the previous questions cannot be answered by even a scientific theory.

One need not apply science to explain God, but surely an atheist would agree that without a God, everything must be explainable scientifically. So where's the explanation of the origins of time, space, and matter?

It is important to note here that the answer doesn't require proof, just some theory that is scientifically possible. There are none.

[SampleMan]

That's an atheist for ya'.

There are no atheists. I don't believe in them. I think they are just denying God based on resentment.

In any event, they can't prove otherwise.