Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

Reformedonline.com ^ | Unknown | Brian M. Schwertley

[topcat54]

Conclusion

Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Biblical optimism is built on the fact that Christ is seated on His throne ruling the nations with a rod of iron. Not some weenie sitting in a corner biding His time until the rapture.

Biblical optimism believes that the Holy Spirit has real power to convert people by gospel preaching.

Biblical optimism believes that God's desire for a great multitude that no man can number to come to faith in Jesus Christ. Not some wimpy minority.

Amen!

[nobdysfool]

Myself and a number of other believers remaining in fellowship with Him have been afforded opportunity to further study and communicate His Prophecy ...

There is a subtle implication here that those whom you oppose, you judge to not be in fellowship with Christ. That is not your place, nor your calling, to determine who is and is not in fellowship with Him. You do not establish your view by tearing others down, and calling those who disagree with you to be "out of fellowship" with Christ.

It could be said that such an attitude proceeds from a prideful spirit, but I will make no judgment of that. I would rather ask you to refrain from provocative language such as this, and realize that we all know in part, not completely. You have no corner on the Truth.

[nobdysfool]

Exactly the opposite...The world is falling into apostasy...

Or, the wheat is being separated from the tares, the sheep from the goats....

[cva66snipe]

I think there is indeed a calling out of the believers to take place before the Tribulation begins. Christ used parables namely Hebrew custom parables many times which point to it. A time on earth when the Bride Groom brings forth the Bride and those who are not ready are locked out.

I also believe the Return of Christ and the Second Coming of Christ to be two significant but different events to take place. Christ calling forth the alive and the dead coming from the heavens and his physical return on earth just that to happen later.

Several things point to Rapture. One being the Tribulation and Great Tribulation itself. The Bible clearly states when Israel makes the 7 year agreement with the antichrist the days can be counted literally as do the day of Christ Second Coming. Yet no one knows when. True no one will know because only the unbelievers will be on earth. They know not the time.

Next is Revelations Chapter 4. Note the passages

1Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” 2And instantly I was in the Spirit,£ and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it! 3The one sitting on the throne was as brilliant as gemstones—jasper and carnelian. And the glow of an emerald circled his throne like a rainbow. 4Twenty-four thrones surrounded him, and twenty-four elders sat on them. They were all clothed in white and had gold crowns on their heads.

Robed in white and crowned. Their judgment has passed and they have been rewarded and are seated as the Elders. The dead in spirit die and their soul enters into eternity of hell. The dead in Christ and living spirits enter heaven upon earthly body death. Even though all will give account for their life here on earth believers do not face the judgment of the unbeliever. That is why Christ spoke to Elijah and Moses for they like Christ are alive in heaven. Chapter 5 after the Elders are sitting is when the Tribulations will come.

As well other verse point to a calling out. GOD called out Noah before he passed judgment on man and the floods came. Noah was saved. GOD called out Israel before passing judgment upon Egypt. Israel was saved. GOD called out Jesus from Judea into Egypt before the children were killed. Christ did not perish. Christ will call out the church before judgment upon this world. These understandings have been sealed up as told in Daniel. There were not to be understood until they needed to be understood. The End Times. It doesn't say we are never to know them but they are to be sealed until GOD's chosen time to reveal them.

Here is more evidence. To understand the scriptures meaning Paul is not talking about the blast mentioned in Revelations but rather the traditional Hebrew wedding custom of a first and last trumpet blast. One announces the engagement the other announces the wedding begins now. Bring forth the Bride the Father has spoken.

1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. 52It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died£ will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die.

That blast is the end. At that blast it is too late. The Bride Groom has arrived and taken in his bride for the feast the doors have been closed. No one knows what hour. No one but the Father. The dead in Christ and the believers living at that time on earth will be called out before judgment.

But the most revealing scripture on this issue is spoken by Christ himself and HIS description of the End Times before the Tribulation.

Luke Ch17 Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God isn’t ushered in with visible signs.£ 21You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you.”£

22Later he talked again about this with his disciples. “The time is coming when you will long to share in the days of the Son of Man, but you won’t be able to,” he said. 23“Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don’t believe such reports or go out to look for him. 24For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky. 25But first the Son of Man must suffer terribly£ and be rejected by this generation.

26“When the Son of Man returns, the world will be like the people were in Noah’s day. 27In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all.

28“And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot. People went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building—29until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Yes, it will be ‘business as usual’ right up to the hour when the Son of Man returns.£ 31On that day a person outside the house£ must not go into the house to pack. A person in the field must not return to town. 32Remember what happened to Lot’s wife! 33Whoever clings to this life will lose it, and whoever loses this life will save it. 34That night two people will be asleep in one bed; one will be taken away, and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding flour together at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.”£

37“Lord, where will this happen?” the disciples asked. Jesus replied, “Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.”£

Christ himself tells us what is to come. He calls out his Bride, his sheep, his children BEFORE the Tribulation begins. How can we know? God told Noah to get in the Ark and GOD sealed the door Himself. GOD made certain Lot was safe as well. He was called out to safety. When the Tribulation and Great Tribulation is happening on earth there will be no mistaking it. The descriptions are horrors of horrors. Not days for feast, weddings, and parties.

I believe our GOD who did all of this will save us and keep us safe as well.

Am I right in this or wrong it simply doesn't matter. If GOD puts us through the Tribulation so shall it be as the 3 Hebrews in the firey furnace. But scripture does point to a calling out in several places and is quite clear about it.

[blue-duncan]

“Jesus uses it to refer to the desecration of the temple by the Romans in AD70.

This is plain from the parallel in Luke 21:”

Let’s see what Luke writes. Remember Jesus is speaking to Jews, not gentiles, so “abomination of desolation” would have significant meaning to them, especially since He is referring to the Daniel prophecy as Matthew reports.

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jerusalem was not entirely destroyed until 135 A.D during the Ben Kochba rebellion. There were still many Jews living in Jerusalem after the 70 A.D. This fits better with John’s prophecy in Rev. 20:8-9, “And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”

Where in any history of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. are any of these signs reported, “signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring...for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”? These are supernatural signs and events that correspond more with the events of the coming of Jesus in power and glory at the end of the age than in 70 A.D.

“And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

This did not take place in 70 A.D and yet it is part and parcel of the this prophecy. All of these things take place at the same time, and again, this prophecy is consistant with John’s future prophecy rather than a realized eschatology.

“Jesus uses it to refer to the desecration of the temple by the Romans in AD70”

Not according to Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 10:24-27). The fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple take place in the time period of the 69th week. The “abomination of desolation” does not take place until after the temple is restored and in the middle of the next time period, the 70th week.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“As was explained on another thread, the term “rapture” has been twisted out of all recognition and certainly for nearly 1900 years never meant what dispensationalists, a minority among Chrsitians, believe.”

As I have previously quoted to you, the idea of a “rapture” a “harpazo” in 1 Thes. as a yet-to-be literal and historical event is not a “fantasy” nor is it a twisting of scripture. Personally I believe there is no Scriptural evidence to warrant the belief in the rapture occurring before the tribulation period. Other godly people do believe it. I find their arguments unpersuasive. But you statement "the Rapture is a fiction" is ill advised. You may disagree as to the timing, but the "harpazo" will occur.

“Most everything else is “vain imaginings... pestered with the ‘revelations’ of hypocrites or maniacs. Semi-lunatics are very fond of coming...””

Why quote this to me???

Why do Calvinist’s seem to be so perpetually angry?

[Blogger]

Half of humanity will die in that day. It truly will be a time so horrible such as has never been seen NOR EVER WILL BE SEEN AGAIN. Jerusalem’s misery has increased since 70 AD. While the destruction was horrific, it was not the worse thing that has ever happened to the Jews. Sadly, there are worse things yet to come for many of them. Yet, out of all this God will bring life where there is death and destruction. And so all Israel will be saved.

[Quix]

The phrase "abomination of desolation" was originally applied to Antiochus Epiphanes desecration of the temple in the second century BC.

Jesus uses it to refer to the desecration of the temple by the Romans in AD70.

This is plain from the parallel in Luke 21:

""But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, ..." (Lule 21:20,21)

Hogwash.

Applied by whom to that inadequate incident? The Scripturally unaware?

1. Antiochus Arrogantus was not the prophetically required:
(A) He was NOT the ruler of a golbal government including every tribal group and language.
(B) He did NOT pull his stunt AFTER Israel had been scattered over the globe AND THEN RECALLED BACK TO THEIR CONVENTAL HOMELANDS.
(C) He was NOT satan incarnate nor even his END TIMES FALSE PROPHET.

Any ONE of the above 3 items would have been enough to disqualify him as fulfilling that prophecy. I'd have thought a thorough understanding of Scriptural prophecies would have made that abundantly clear.

Hogwash--Jesus responded in Mat 24-25 (Including 24:15 about the abomination of desolation) to the Disciples questions about the END TIMES--as in the END OF AN ERA OR DISPENSATION--WHICH IS WHAT THE DISCIPLES WERE ASKING ABOUT. Or do you think that when the Disciples asked him for bread of understanding, He gave them a stone?

And in 24:34--THIS GENERATION that sees the beginning of the birthpangs for the end of the age will essentially be alive when the conlusion of the birth pangs of the new era have concluded and birthed the new era. It's not rocket science. Very straightforward language. Very straight forward logic. Though I realize it requires a degree of fair-mindedness and a wholesale openness to Holy Spirit illuminating said Scriptures to get them easily and accurately construed.

Luke 21 is also a super INADEQUATE explanation for anything historical to this point in time 2,000 years hence. At no time since the dispersal of the Israelites over the whole planet has:

The armies of the whole world gathered against the Israelites as described in abundant prophecies. It is clear from the globalists' hatred of Christians AND GOD'S CHOSEN BLOODLINE that they will be eager to gather the armies of the whole world against the returned Israelites in their Covenantal homeland AS CLEARLY BIBLICALLY PREDICTED. But such has NOT AT ALL OCCURRED TO THIS MOMENT IN TIME. Any other notion is wholesale cross-wise with Scripture and against Scripture.

Luke 21: Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, ..." (Lule 21:20,21)

WHY? BECAUSE WHEN the Anti-Christ sets his image up in the rebuilt Holy of Holies and the Jews then REALIZE they've been had and that he is NOT the true MESSIAH, they will start fleeing the area and he will start slaughtering them by the thousands as another Scriptural prophecy makes so abundantly clear.

THAT SEQUENCE HAS NOT HAPPENED. NO PART OF IT HAS HAPPENED AS PREDICTED. THE STAGE HAS NOT EVEN BEEN FULLY SET FOR IT TO HAPPEN. Any other construction on such prophecies clearly does not include the whole counsel of Scripture on the matter.

Sometimes I am kind of embarrassed for them that the folks on the other side are not better able to mount a more robust, more truly Scriptural argument for their perspective. But, I usually realize that they can only work (honorably) with the Scrxiptures as are truly in the true Canon. No rubber Bible will really do. Given that, I can appreciate how impossible their task is and have more compassion for their inadequate defense of that perspective. Grasping for scattered Scriptures thrown together at obviously inadequate bits of the historical record is about as good as can be done. Thankfully, perceptive, discerning folks realize that.

[Quix]

Much appreciate your Biblical consistency and diligence on such topics.

Thx.

[Blogger]

You're kidding, right?
Did I stutter?

Yes, Antiochus's sacrifice of a pig in the Temple was a foreshadowing of the future abomination but obviously, he was not THE abomination of which Christ spoke of for Christ spoke of the future. Nor was the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, for many reasons.

No "abomination that makes desolate" was standing in the holy place. The Temple burnt down. The Romans wanted to make it a trophy place. It burnt instead. The Romans took the gold of the Temple. There was no stone left one upon another. But, the abomination of desolation was not fulfilled on that day.

No "palace" was set up in Jerusalem by the leader that causes the abomination. Titus simply attacked the city and its people. In fact, how does Titus fulfill Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 11:21-45 at all? Daniel speaks of certain attributes of the MAN who will cause desolation. Can you demonstrate how he and the attack of Jerusalem in AD 70 at all fulfills Daniel's prophecy which Christ spoke of?

Jerusalem WILL be surrounded by armies at a future date. It will be the armies of the Antichrist when he breaks his agreement with the Jews in Jerusalem and commits the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12 speaks of the time frame of this abomination. It says: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (When did this happen in your 70 AD fulfillment?)

Paul speaks of this abomination in 2 Thessalonians 2 speaking of the Antichrist: 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13 is the embodiment of this person and this person is the future Antichrist.

70 AD simply doesn't fulfill the prophecy. There was no ruler sitting in the temple of God declaring himself to be God. There was nothing set up in the Holy Spirit that would cause desolation. The Antichrist or his image are that abomination.

Pink,incidentally,agrees (thus far you have not proven him to have lost his dispensational view at any point in his life). Enjoy.

It is striking to note that our Lord begins His prophecy by saying; "Take heed that no man deceive you, for many shall come in My name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:4, 5). The significance of this appears by comparing Matthew 24:11, "And many false prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many." These false christs and false prophets are to head up in the Antichrist and the False Prophet, who will be the arch-deceivers. When we reach Matthew 24:15 a clear allusion is made to the Man of Sin: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand." This reference of Christ to "the abomination of desolation" which is to "stand in the holy place," looks back to Daniel 12:11: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This, in turn, carries us back to Daniel 9:27: "And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." With these verses should be compared Revelation 13:11-15, where we are told that the False Prophet who shall perform great wonders, will command men that "they should make an image to the beast." The False Prophet will have "power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the beast should be killed." By linking these scriptures together the following facts are brought out:

First, an "image" is going to be made to the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15). Second, this "image" will "stand in the holy place" (Matthew 24:15), that is, in the re-built Temple at Jerusalem. Third, this "image" will possess supernatural power, for it shall be able to "speak" (Rev. 13:15). Fourth, this "image" unto the beast shall be an object of worship, and those who refuse to worship it shall be killed (Rev. 13:14,15). Fifth, this "image" is termed "abomination of desolation." The term "abomination" is an Old Testament expression connected with idolatry, and signifies some special idol or false god (see Deut. 7:26; 1 Kings 11:5-7). Sixth, this "abomination" or idol-god will be set up during the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, or three and one half years from the end of Antichrist’s career. This is clear from Daniel 12:11 and 9:27. The taking away of "the daily sacrifice" occurs when the Antichrist throws off his mask and stands forth as the Defier of heaven. In the re-built Temple of the Jews sacrifices shall once more be offered by them to God. These their King suffers, while he is posing as the Christ. But when he drops his religious pretensions and defies heaven as well as earth, the "sacrifices" will be taken away, and in their place worship to an image of himself will be substituted. Seventh, the setting up of this "image" to the Antichrist will, most probably, be attended with supernatural phenomenon. We gather this from Daniel 9:27, where we read, "And he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Now the word here translated "overspreading" is never so rendered elsewhere. Seventy times is this word translated "wing" or "wings." It is the word used of the wings of the cherubim in Exodus 25:20 and Ezekiel 10:5, etc. And in Psalm 18:10 we read of Jehovah that "He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, He did fly upon the wings of the wind "

[Quix]

and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

INDEED. Great post. Thanks.

Last I checked, it was still the church age/dispensation. The times of the Gentiles have not been totally fulfilled. Though it increasingly looks like the stage is more and more set for that culmination in our era/dispensation.

There are certainly still some mysteries about END TIMES prophecies. God is a good General who does not clue satan in about everything. But some things are rather clear.

[Blogger]

Thank you friend, also for your insightful (and often entertaining) posts :)

[Quix]

Daniel 12 speaks of the time frame of this abomination. It says: 11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (When did this happen in your 70 AD fulfillment?)

[Quix]

and often entertaining
= = =

aHHHH WELLLLL.

Guilty as charged sometimes. Seems to me God was that way throughout the Old Testament and the NT.

But I don’t often measure up.

Thanks for your kind words.

LUB,

[Blogger]

:)

Night friend.

[Cvengr]

No, this means that while a believer is still alive, they have an opportunity to return to God on His grounds and study from the pastor-teacher with a spiritual gift to communicate the Word of God to that believer. Then for the believer to receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit in their human spirit while in fellowship with Him, so that the Word becomes gnosis in their mind, and again through the ministry of the Holy Spirit that same gnosis becomes epignosis in their heart. While remaining filled with the Holy Spirit, and circulating the Word of God through their consciousness the believer will be better equipped to handle problems in life without becoming frustrated and remain in fellowship with Him in all things.

The doctrine of the Rapture is for mature believers, not for those still developing in the basics. If a believer hasn’t mastered the ability to respect the volition of his fellow believers who are in fellowship with God through faith in Christ, then there are strong indicators that other obstacles are in the believer’s life which need to be addressed before advancing to eschatology, although for each believer God still has a plan for particular development.

Lewis Sperry Chafer is identified with dispensationalism.

He was President of Dallas Theological Seminary and Professor of Systematic Theology at the same institution. Prior to founding that seminary, he had graduated from Auborn Theological Seminary, a Presbyterian/Congregational institution in New York.

Lewis was an interim pastor at the First Presbyterian Church in Lewiston, New York and later begun a 2-yr ministry as assistant pastor of the First Congregationalist Church of Buffalo and formal ordination as minister in the Congregational Church in April of 1900.

By 1909, Chafer was president of the Southland Bible Conferences after years of association with both Northfield and Southland Conferences. These welcomed a number of prominent evangelists such as G. Campbell Morgan, F. B. Meyer, A. C. Gaebelei (another highly recommended author of some outstanding studies), James M. Gray, and W. H. Griffith Thomas.

Chafer then associated with Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. Pastor of Trinitarian Congregational Church, Scofield was pastor of Moody’s church in Northfield. In 1906 he left the Congregationalist community, joining the Troy Presbytery, Synod of New York, Presbyterian Church (USA). In 1913, he assisted Scofield in founding the Philidelphia School of the Bible. He joined the Orange Presbytery of the Presbyterian Chruch (U.S.A.) in 1912 and published fro 1906 -1921 at least 6 major theological texts.

Chafer moved to Dallas, Texas in 1922 following Scofield’s declining health and assumed his duties as pastor of the First Congregationalist Church, which had been founded in 1882 by Scofield. He further became the general secretary of the Central American Mission, a missionary society founded by Scofield in 1890. He transferred his ministerial credentials to the Dallas Presbytery of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) in 1923.

Chafer founded the Evangelical Theological College (later Dallas Theological Seminary) in 1923 and served as its president and professor of systematic theology until his death in 1952.

(Sidenote: it is interesting to note that during this period, the US is probably best observed as a client-nation to God throughout the world, and began declining about 2 decades after Chafer’s death, carrying the to victory the world system of government in two major world wars, and then declining after his death.)

Both Scofield’s Reference Bible and Chafer’s Systematic Theology are considered basics of dispensational perspectives in theology.

Chafer’s theology is associated with three diverse traditions. Augustianism, Keswick Theology, and (Plymoth) Brethrenism. Chafer’s systemics is Reformed or Calvinistic in soteriology and antropology.

His major legacy is his emphasis on the centrality of Christ and the grace of God. The motto of the seminary he founded was “Preach the Word” (2Tim 2:2)

Now consider the theme of this thread. The original article and comments posted allege ‘dispensationalism’ is not Scriptural. It goes further to imply postmillenialism is the only possible true interpretation of Scripture. It also attempts to associate all reformed theology to only acknowledge postmillenialism as sound doctrine.

Which really leaves one to wonder, where has the Presbyterian Church been for a century when it so richly associated with premillenialism, only to disassociate itself with it after the death of Scofield and Chafer. Of course, maybe the entire Reformed Church is more influenced by a csomic system of worldly control rather than devotion to truth through faith in Christ, when for over a century it has been unable to come forth so rigorously in opposition to what they now percieve to be blasphemy.

Interestingly, the same heretics they now disavow, are the same pastors who lead the US in its status as clint nation to God for half a century, and endured victoriously in two World Wars.

Isn’t it interesting that the same opponents to Dispensationalism now prefer to pay homage to the Pope of Geneva who murdered his opponents, rather than simply place faith in God’s Grace, which is the major theme of the leader in dispensational though they so quickly disdain?

[Cvengr]

In one position, there is a claim Satan is bound, therefore postmillenial interpretations of Prophecy are the metric. In the next statement, a claim he tempts the elect and subverts the condemned.

What part of bound in the bottomless pit is not understood?

Satan is not bound today in the bottomless pit.

[Cvengr]

"...calling those ...to be "out of fellowship" with Christ.

Such are your words.

[aruanan]

Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

No. In many ways what we see in this pretrib rapture mess is a very close parallel to the fossil ‘record’ in evolution. Both scriptures and fossils are reinterpreted (like we were told at a very conservative Christian college: John’s call in Revelation to “come up hither”, to heaven for his revelation, was ‘the rapture’) and rearranged, the subsequent elaborate intellectual structures themselves acquiring status as proof of something that is nowhere evident, or that is even contradicted, in the specifics of the Biblical record or the fossils as they lie in situ. The structure is covered with bits and pieces of scripture or fossil. When challenged as to the reality of the structure, the proponent points to it and says "Of course, it's scriptural/scientific. Look there's scripture/scientific datum there and there and there!" Their particulars acquire a special meaning on account of the context they've created for them. The fact that the particulars indeed exist is then used as evidence for the independent existence of the intellectual schema they used to collect and arrange them. In both cases, the proponents are usually extremely dismissive of any criticism and use any criticism as evidence of the intellectual or spiritual unsoundness of the critic. Criticisms are ignored or flippantly replied to, secondary hypotheses are invoked to rescue the failed primary hypothesis. Critics are branded as heretics.

At least in the case of the Bible, it involves language that is fairly clear and consists of actual discussions of major Christian doctrines and is less amenable to what takes place with fossils and evolutionary taxonomy. In the case of a pre-tribulation rapture of the Christians (Warning: In event of rapture this vehicle will be unmanned!), we see active deconstruction of clear passages (such as the “One shall be taken, one shall be left”) so that fragments can be taken and reassembled into something that does not appear in the text itself.

[Cvengr]

And indeed He does till His Rapture of the Church.

Why would anybody still deny Him the cleansing of the world prior to His 2nd Advent, but insist He must also punish His devout followers? Such is the dispensational and Scriptural position.

Wouldn’t is be better to simply study the Scripture a bit more before judging generations of believers who have gone before and held the pretribulational premillenial rapture position? The Corinthians obviously held such a view and were emboldened by Paul to remain patient.

The royal family of God is purified at the Rapture. Human good and evil are burned and the old sin nature is then removed, thereby forming the bride of Christ. There still remains a remnant when this occurs.